More limited motor discussion

[dethow]

Make a decision on length 60, 61.3, 62 and go with it.

So we go with 60mm max length. Now I'll call up Neu and have them cut the guts down on a 1415 motor and stuff as much as they can into a 60mm can.
Will probably weigh about 280g to 285g and will become an "own it or chase it" motor. So go spend $250 to $300 on a motor to be competitive in the class. Class is ruined.
Or worse... someone builds there own packed motor at 285g and no one else can even get it at all without knowing how to build a motor. People are pissed and class is ruined.

And can't just go smaller than 60mm because other good motors would then be out.

[dethow]

If you think for a minute there won't be protests your naïve.

As Terry Davis said...

I really think the number of times that a protest was made would be minimal. If cheating was expected already (I read that in here somewhere).............why aren't there protests now? We've already established there are guys capable or re-winding a motor, swapping bearings, balancing rotors, whatever. It could have been done. Yet nobody has ever protested a motor to my knowledge since the old limited rules passed. Because most everyone knows the rule, complies, and we trust each other. 9 years of the class with rules that could be circumvented and nobody at a race though they were being cheated.

[dethow]

The intent of spec was to keep things simple and inexpensive to attract new racers.

Exactly...

Simple = Diameter x Length x Weight

Inexpensive = Utilizing a weight limit to block out expensive custom made motors that will dominant the class.
Someone can go spend the money and/or time with a custom motor, but with a weight limit its probably not going to dominant. Can only get so much in a 37mm x 62mm canister that can't weight over 270 grams. With no weight limit, I've proven that a dominant motor can be produced within a 37mm x 62mm canister. It weighs 10% more then the next heaviest motor. I say dominant based on Brian Buaas's experience and data from that motor.

New racers will come because they can buy RTR boats and be competitive with stock motors.
This will be even less expensive then current NAMBA rules because as it stands if a newbie really likes the Proboat UL-19 or Veles 29, they spend $430 on the boat... or they like the Promarine Skater or Phantom SV 33 for $590, but then have to go buy a different $75 motor which will probably cause the boat to go slower. Oh... and that newbie needs to learn how to solder new connectors on that $75 motor to mate with the esc.

[T.S.Davis]

I tried really hard to not think about this for a couple days. I'm kinda pissy about it now. Sorry guys.

Simple and easy to tech to attract new boaters is IMO still only part of the goal. It has to be at least interesting enough to veteran racers to make them want to participate too. I know Darin is frustrated, but the class (and FE really) needs guys like him to stick with it. Race with the new guy. Teach him to do all that crap Doby mentioned. We're all better for it. Get good at spec and the next thing you know you have a T rigger. Okay.......that's a big leap but you get the idea.

For MMEU club series, the addition of a weight limit would make zero difference. We already know what everyone is running. Only Dave's fresh 1415's would be even close to a limit if we came up with one. It still would have to be protested in the appropriate fashion.

[dethow]

Oh... and that newbie needs to learn how to solder new connectors on that $75 motor to mate with the esc.

Weird enough... and I think others will agree.

That right there has been one of the biggest deterrents for new racers. Tell a guy what boat to go buy and he's with you. Once you start telling him to then go buy this specific motor and the need to learn out to solder on new connectors... You see the glazed over look in their eyes and you know they'll never turn a lap of racing.

[dethow]

For MMEU club series, the addition of a weight limit would make zero difference. We already know what everyone is running. Only Dave's fresh 1415's would be even close to a limit if we came up with one. It still would have to be protested in the appropriate fashion.

Terry,
Whatever you, Tom and the rest of the club think is best.
I just wanted you all to know that I will not be offended or hurt if we need to knock these 1415 out of the races.

With that said... I don't think a weight limit is the way to do it right now. We don't need to complicate things this season and add the possibility of protests. We just simply say 37mm x 62mm motor limits except for cut down Neu 1415s and TP 3640s. (Add the TP just incase)

Think about it. We'll talk.
I just don't want guys leaving the Nats feeling they may have gotten that second or third place finish if those 1415s weren't allowed. I don't think me racing my motors will effect first because I'm not good enough, but it could start to effect who's getting seconds and thirds.

[Rumpelhardt]

An idea from an outsider that may have already been thought of but how about setting general motor specs and instituting a "claimer rule" . Seems to work pretty well in local stock car racing.

[Doug Smock]

Hi Robert, it has been discussed several times through the years.

It's Friday fellas. What do you say we take a little break and revisit this next week?

Bet ya can't do it!!

[CraigP]

I understand your fatigue Doug, this is a very hard subject to come up with a working solution. I have an idea to just throw out there...

Instead of diving into the minutia of motor details and specs, look at it from a bigger picture. A solution that takes all the cheater tactics out of play, batteries, ESC mods, the list goes on and on. But in the end, an out of spec boat is going to have more ft lbs of torque at the prop. My idea is to set a max torque output. Then, we create a hand-held dynometer that hooks to the drive shaft by an adapter when the prop is removed.

This is easier than your thinking right now... it’s basically a brushed motor, that is hooked to to a resistor pack. The resistors are calibrated for torque output. Now, all that’s required by the Techs at the race is to hook it to the boat, hit full throttle and look for a green or red light. Who cares how they cheated, whether it’s motor mods, illegal batts, ESC mods, whatever! You got too much torque, your out of there.

Now folks will really think twice about cheating because they don’t have the club’s dynometer. I would be willing to help develop this. Someone should also ask Jay’s opinion. But it seems to me, you have to take the check to the last element in the boat, and that’s torque on the prop shaft...

[Darin Jordan]

David wins... I think I've met my match in the "over-analyze-it" department!

He and I are going to get along just fine!

Have a GREAT weekend, everyone!!

[dethow]

He and I are going to get along just fine!

Look forward to seeing you in Michigan.

I think we will agree on one thing thou... taking a weight would be a lot better then trying to measure torque.
I could over analyze the sh*t out of that one. I'm not even going there. Just a simply NO WAY

[Doug Smock]

Craig did bring something to the conversation that I don't remember seeing in the (we'd probably pee our pants if we knew how) many posts on this subject. Interesting Craig.

Have a great weekend fellas!
I'm going to a grandsons birthday party tomorrow. Sunday I'm going to work on boats not talk about them!

[CraigP]

Doug, could you please copy my post and send to Jay (Fluid) to get another opinion? He’s an electronics guy, but this is a very SIMPLE system... I’m sure he will read something from you, thanks!

[Doug Smock]

Doug, could you please copy my post and send to Jay (Fluid) to get another opinion? He’s an electronics guy, but this is a very SIMPLE system... I’m sure he will read something from you, thanks!

Will do Craig.

[dethow]

OMG... guys! Just stop this now.

First: Same motor in different winds will have completely different torque outputs.

Second: You say: "Now folks will really think twice about cheating because they don’t have the club’s dynometer."
If no one has this custom made dynometer then how will anyone even know if their setup/motor is legal?

Third: Lets get into batteries. What's the voltage and discharge rate of the battery being utilized in this test? That's going to effect the output torque.

Fourth: What timing is the esc set at? Different timings will produce a different torque output.

I really hope this was just Because this is just plain crazy...