More limited motor discussion

[dethow]

MOVED OUT OF THE FOR SALE FORUM AND NAMBA SCALE RULE THREAD

There are actually no rules that cover P limited / Spec class in IMPBA it is left up to the clubs.

That's correct. Rules are in the works and being proposed.
As stated, these motors fit the MMEU/IMPBA Spec Class dimension rules. These are the rules that are being utilized at this years' IMPBA FE Nationals.
And if you want to be ahead of the curve these are also the rules being proposed in both IMPBA and NAMBA for approval/vote.

Current for either... NO
Future for both... WE'LL SEE
Current for MMEU/IMPBA 2018 FE Nationals... YES

[rayzerdesigns]

Would be interesting to test one.. they are still a 4 pole motor..you can only fit so much into a can size.. not saying they won’t be good.. but this is the main reason we didn’t want to do a size limit.. a 200$ Motor has no place in spec racing in my opinion..

[Darin Jordan]

This thread has caused an interesting storm of "the sky is falling" e-mails and texts.

People... "Neu" is NOT an abbreviation for "magic bullet". 37mm x 62mm... you'll only get SO much copper and steel inside that can, regardless of the label or brand.

Perhaps take a step back and RELAX. Buy your motors, get your boats setup, and learn to drive. Then your 90% of the way there.

When you get good with props, you'll start approaching that remaining 10%.

The sky is NOT falling...

[Darin Jordan]

... a 200$ Motor has no place in spec racing in my opinion..

And, they likely won't have a place for long, once people realize you can be competitive with a motor that costs half that.

[dethow]

These motors have been run in MMEU for a season and no speed advantage was observed. The main reason to buy a motor like this is reliability. One of our members burned a couple $80 motors this season while in the same boat these motors are still going.

But yes... Darin is 100% right. The sky is not falling and based on our club's examination, there are other motors which showed some slight dominance in terms of speed. But those racers/boats have always been some of our fastest so maybe that's not even true that it was the motors.

Size limits has proven itself out to be good as far as what we've seen and what I've heard from other clubs doing some testing.
Things will continue to get tested out this year and we'll see where it goes.

But people... the only way to see if there is a problem is to explore the limits and see what happens. Please stop making assumptions just because a motor costs more. The $55 Dynamite 1500kv has been doing some domination for years if you know how to setup a boat for it.

[Doug Smock]

"you'll only get SO much copper and steel inside that can" The new catch phrase reminiscent of "The motor is the fuse".
That worked out well didn't it? Just sayin...

Watts no longer = power, and mass is over rated. Your AQ, Dynamite, Himax,and Proboat motors will still be competitive! No body needs to re tool!

^^^ Makes sense if you don't think about it.^^^

[dethow]

I believe the Neu 1412 motors have proven themselves to NOT be a factor. Other than reliability...
And that's mostly because there is no more copper in there then there is any other current limited/spec legal motor or any other $80 motor which fits the 37mm x 62mm dimension rule being considered. The 1412 motor fits in a 55.2mm can. That’s it folks.

Now moving past the 1412… It is possible to get a Neu 1415 into a 62mm can. I have several of them in my possession. And I’ll tell you that can is stuffed with copper and weighs in at just over 290 grams. I think it has potential to be a beast. I’m not the only one who will have this motor this upcoming season. At least one other person has now placed an order with Neu.

A couple of us are reaching into our pockets to see where this rules can be pushed to and see what happens. The 1412 has already proved to be a non-factor, like I said. This season we’ll see what role a 1415 stuffed into a 62mm can holds.

I’ve had this discussion with the other person getting some 1415s already. My gut says the 1415s will prove some dominance and the size rule will have to be pulled back slightly to 37mm x 60mm. This small change would still be inclusive to everything currently legal along with other $80 motors available. And even the Neu 1412 for those that want to burn a hole in their pocket for no real results.
This change would knock out the possibility of the Neu 1415, the Lehner 1940 and the Lehner 1930 with fan. The Lehner 1930 without fan is only 54mm long and will probably prove to be no threat like the Neu 1412.
I included the Lehner 1940 because without a fan its specs at 64mm long. Like the Neu 1415, someone may be able have Lehner build it at 62mm or cut it down themselves.

The only desirable motor that starts to come into question at 60mm long is the TP3630. They have been manufacturing this motor in varying lengths. You can see OSE shows specs of 61mm while TP’s own spec sheet shows them at 58mm long. I personally had some at 57.5mm long and I think I heard that some people got a some which were over 62mm long and they had to be sent back.
That’s TPs problem… They need to get there sh*t together and build their motors to their spec at 58mm long.

This is all being put out there because I truly do care about the class and the hobby. I think the Neu 1415 motor is going to close the gap between limited/spec and full P. I also think that, if they are a motor you are either going to own or chase we are going to lose new people and existing people that don’t want to spend $250 on a motor. That’s not good.
We will see how these 1415s play out with some actual testing and racing this year. But I wanted to start to lay the ground work for the thought on needing to slow down on the 37mm x 62mm dimensions.
And for those that want to cry and whine. Please stop. There are some of us out buying these things to actually race and test. Bench talk and assumptions has gotten everyone nowhere over the past several years. If you have such a strong feeling on something that you want to attempt to hold back progress… Then go buy one and prove it.

I’d like to invite Darin to bench test one of my 1415 motors for comparison against the others he’s already done. Mike Ball is probably going to do some actual race testing with GPS and data logging this spring.

Let’s all quit the bench talk , start testing and make decisions which are smart for the class. But with that said… the individuals not spending their time and/or money need to set back, stop the crying and listen.

[Doug Smock]

Oops, all of the testing should have been done before a rule set was proposed. I guess I can have an opinion since I have time & money invested??

[dethow]

Oops, all of the testing should have been done before a rule set was proposed. I guess I can have an opinion since I have time & money invested??

I haven't heard of any rule set put out for vote yet. That's why I said we need to put the breaks on this rule change. IOW... slow down the proposal and wait on putting it out for vote until we can see if these 1415s are going to destroy the class.

And I knew that would be taking the wrong way. Everyone's opinion matters...
The point is that assumptions have been getting us all no where. There are some who have done no testing and have already made up there mind that a dimension rule is bad. Those assumptions are not based on facts because those that have actually been doing testing are saying there been no advantages found. Thus, putting out statements like that are just an effort to hold back progress for a reason that are unknown. Darin has done bench testing and sees no obvious advantages in the motors which would be available. A couple clubs have been doing some racing and records what motors are winning. Again... No obvious advantages seen.

This 1415 issue is new information that took time to get to. After measuring and asking questions it finally became a reality that this can be done with a 1415 motor. Now we need some time to test and check the results of that.

Doug... this Neu and Lehner motor thing has been a hot topic since this motor discussion came up. Have you gotten any Neu or Lehner motors to run/test? If you have, thank you. Could you share your findings.

I apologize if I offended you Doug or anyone else. Not my intent.
Obviously lots of people have time and money invested. Just not a lot investing into pushing the limits of the rules to see what happens when someone does that. The nay sayers of the rule should be glad that the limits are being tested and that we're not just looking at $80 motors and waiting until the rule is voted in and then a couple years down the road someone crams at 70mm motor in a 62mm can.

[dethow]

I'd rather lose lots of money I spent on these 1415 motors then lose racers.
My $250 1415 motors are no good with no one to race against.
Our MMEU club would probably lose at least half its limited/spec class racers if there's not a chance to win without spending $250 on a motor.

Do we know that's the case yet. Absolutely NOT!
These 1415 may result in nothing. Unlikely... but you never know.

All I'm trying to do here is say... put the breaks on a vote and lets see what happens when the limits of the rule are pushed. The result MAY be that the proposed limits need to be pulled back slightly to 60mm long. I know there should be a manufacturing tolerance for the 60mm long motors but the manufactures just need to get there stuff right.
Maybe build in a 1mm tolerance at CD discretion so if a motor is built slightly large the CD can look and see its obviously a TP 3630 or a SSS 3660, it was just slightly off in manufacturing. But if someone brings an obvious 1415 or any other custom built motor that measures over 60mm... the CD can dis-allow it.

Otherwise I am a COMPLETE advocate for the new dimension rule. Just don't want to see the class destroyed for what could be a simple change before its put in the books.

[T.S.Davis]

Your AQ, Dynamite, Himax,and Proboat motors will still be competitive! No body needs to re tool!

^^^ Makes sense if you don't think about it.^^^

I did retool actually. After testing and witnessing the testing on a bunch of motors I dumped most everything in favor of the cheepo Dynamite motors. Doesn't get hot and will out run all the Neu's I've seen thus far. In truth I would be shocked if Dave's fresh 1415's can catch Tyler with the Dynamite. I've been wrong before though. Plus Doug.........how can you retool for classes that don't exist? bazzing!

As far as the rule set I just razzed Doug about........ this isn't going to become an organizational rule set any time soon. IMPBA wont even look at it until later this year. Likely after the nats. Then it will receive the typical one year trial run even though we already did that. So right now we're looking at maybe fall of 2019 for a vote at the very earliest. I don't know of anyone actively campaigning against it but it's just not priority and that's how it's done.

NAMBA FE will be trapped in the same sort of loop for at least another year on it too so don't hurt yer selves wringing yer hands over exactly what's what at this point. Figure out what's okay where you plan to race and run that. For MMEU and the NATS there is a size limit and that's all.

By the time either organization responds to what we need there will be some new battery that none of us ever even dreamed of to monkey up everything. It's a problem for FE with both organizations. It/they/we/the orgs (the orgs. are us remember) can't move forward as fast as the tech changes. Then analysis paralysis sets in and we wring our hands for three years.

[Doug Smock]

David, we're good, no problem here at all!

No I haven't ordered or done any Neu or Lehner motor testing for these classes. The District voted against the dimension rule for the 2018 Grand Prix series. The Spring Nats. I say bring it, and lets what happens. If I get smoked (so to speak) that will be a clue. I'll have time to make changes if it looks like I can make it up there for the Nats./ Cup.

"Plus Doug.........how can you retool for classes that don't exist"?
It's extremely easy when they don't exist! Ya just do it if ya need to!!

[HTVboats]

Just a thought for rules. Motors must be manufactured with a minimum production of 500 units and available through normal retail outlets. Insure motors can be purchased by all racers. Remember rules can be adjusted from time to time to level competition. NASCAR adapts rules every year and have become one of the most successful organizations in motorsports.
Mic

[dethow]

In truth I would be shocked if Dave's fresh 1415's can catch Tyler with the Dynamite. I've been wrong before though.

In my hands... you are probably right. I'm not good at setting up a boat and I can't drive.

I thought the same way when these motors were on order. Once I got them in my hands, felt the weight and saw how stuffed they were. I thought of other guys that actually know what they're doing getting a hold of these motors...

[dethow]

Just a thought for rules. Motors must be manufactured with a minimum production of 500 units and available through normal retail outlets.

How do we know how many were manufactured? And define "normal retail outlets".
Doubt 500 of the OSE Raider motors were produced. They are out??? That's not right...
And buying direct from Neu is a normal retail outlet. Anyone can buy from them...

Can't bench talk this... Need to just see what the 1415s do and figure out a way to get them out (if necessary) without over complicating things. And I think the simple way is to pull back to 37mm x 60mm. That's it... that simple.