More limited motor discussion

[Doug Smock]

That was my point Darin.... Let them die a natural death, kill them off, manage something similar at a district or club level, or don't!.

After all these years we continue to look like a bunch of idiots and it's getting under my skin. It's ridiculous to the point of embarrassment!

We have 30 limited boats entered in a D13 GP race this month and the contestants don't know this discussion is taking place. That's success in my opinion! 9 years ,no noise, no protests, just folks having fun racing reasonably priced models without a National rule set.

I realize that NAMBA is in a different place, perhaps that discussion should take place in the NAMBA forum.

[T.S.Davis]

Sorry guys.....day job too. haha

On the wires Mike asked about........

The Proboat 1500 has crimps at the can where they adapt to stranded silver. You can/could/I did take the stranded wire and crimp off. Then soldered right to the wind. Pain in the a$$! Advantage? I don't think so. If anything I think I murdered that particular motor.

The Proboat 2000 motor has the same setup but no crimps. The strands are soldered to the windings. It's a poor design as that's the week point. You can try to solder right to the windings but they are so short that you can't get a connector in there. Tried this. Baked it.

The Promarine motor has stranded wires soldered to the windings and then a brass sleeve around the joint. Seems like a great idea but the solder they use is low temp and is the fail point. Same problem as the PB 2000. The winding is too short without the stranded wire. I was so sure this one would work. I tried butchering the end bell to fit the connectors where I wanted them. I even tried a copper extension. Barbecued 6 of these in the end. 3 modified. 3 stock.

I have no idea why any of the manufacturers thought an extra joint in the power delivery was a good thing. More resistance is more heat is more power loss is more heat is more resistance is more heat is more power loss is more heat.......annnndddd thermal nuclear melt down.

The leads on a TP are solid windings. No joints. However, most of them are super long unless you knew to order them short. You can clip them and re-solder but getting the enamel off the winding is a bastard. The TP wasn't the fastest thing we ran but man can you abuse these! Long life span even if you do evil things to them. Like post race saturation temps over 300 and still make the next heat. That motor is ruined but it still runs and didn't take a speedo with it. Go figure.

Point being, if you were looking to shave a couple grams to get legal with a particular motor that wouldn't ordinarily be you could trim the leads a bit.

I was riding the "what if" train all season by the way. Trying things to see if it made a difference. Seeing what COULD happen if this/that/the other. I was glad when I saw other guys trying things outside the box.

[longballlumber]

Mike, yer making a good case for it. Adding to that, how is that any different than tearing down a a gas motor? Nobody is doing that until someone stakes a claim. Isn't that the case? Showing my ignorance again.

I would need to review the rule book to find out EXACTLY how protests for the Gas/Nitro are processed, but YES the idea is the same.

[dethow]

Anything you add to a dimensional limitation, is simply being added to make people feel better. Any additions to the dimensional limitations have little value in actually regulating a class. The just complicate tech'ing and enforcement.

Actually… Mike might be on to something here. Steve (OSE) I had brought this weight issue up in another thread several weeks ago and before I had the 1415s in my hands.

At the time I had weight for a standard 70mm long 1415 at 292 grams. I assumed that may drop to about 280 grams with 8mm of the can and shaft cut off.

The next heaviest motor I had looked at was the TP3630 at 263 grams.

At that time, I didn’t have a Dyn2000kv in my hands and could only find data that showed it was 296 grams which included its stock jacket and connectors. I made some assumptions that without a jacket or connectors the Dyn2000 would probably be in the 265-gram area.

So I said that by the time we built in some tolerance allowance we’d probably have to set a max at 275-gram area. So my resolution was that I could probably get the 1415 close to that by shortening wires, taking as much off the shaft as possible as well as flat spot. I then I could even grid some thickness of front and end bells of the motor to lose a couple grams. Long story short (to late), I didn’t think it would help anything.

UNTIL NOW… Turns out that the Dyn2000kv motor actually weighs 252 grams without a jacket but with connector still on. So the heaviest motor (I’ve seen) that people have been running is the TP3630 at 263 grams. And it turns out my 1415s came back at 292 to 294 grams depending on wind. We could set a max at 270 grams and a 1415 would NEVER get there. Nor would anything like a 1415 motor.

It’s easy to measure my 1415s at 61.5mm long and see the copper is almost coming out the back end of it. I think it’d be the case with any motor weather made by a manufacture or in someone’s basement… If there is a protest made… Measure the motor first. If it fits, then look in the motor and if its stuffed with copper it would justify pulling it for a weight. From there, as Mike said, strip it as necessary until it gets under the max. If jacket, collet and connectors are off and it’s still over… then it’s illegal.

Based on numbers I’ve seen I think we could go with 37mm dia x 62mm long x 270 grams weight as maximum measurements and we’d be good to go. The 270 grams max would leave enough room that most motors would be under with connectors still on and maybe even jackets too. At the same time, I believe it’d keep anything which would have some dominance over the majority out of the class.

[dethow]

Anything you add to a dimensional limitation, is simply being added to make people feel better. Any additions to the dimensional limitations have little value in actually regulating a class. The just complicate tech'ing and enforcement.

So Darin, in a much shorter statement...

A weight max of 270 grams would for sure knock out the possibility of a 1415 motor. So it WOULD add value in actually regulating the class.

Would it complicate tech'ing and enforcement? Obviously... but at least a method of protesting and enforcement can be figured out and accomplished with as minimal necessity and invasion as possible. Complicate some... Yes. But not impossible by any means to tech and enforce.

You need to open up a little Darin. Understood it's not your ideal and it's a compromise, but it'd probably work.

[Darin Jordan]

Complicate some... Yes. But not impossible by any means to tech and enforce.

You need to open up a little Darin. Understood it's not your ideal and it's a compromise, but it'd probably work.

Sigh... I'm dragged back in...

OK, let me just illustrate the issue I have with weight.

National event, day is packed with heats, and heat 1 gets run. I stomp the field in P-LTD OPC Tunnel (not really that hypothetical, in reality... )

Someone protests me on the grounds of having a motor that weighs too much immediately following the heat.

I'm not forced to remove my motor, remove the coupler (precisely positioned to allow just the right amount of end-play in the cable), remove my water jacket (siliconed on? bummer right?), and likely unsolder my connectors, so that I can fight the protest.

I've now missed my next class, and am stuck with a boat that I now have to reassemble in order to try to make heat 2 of OPC Tunnel.

Now, imagine that for a rigger, or something where the motor is CRAMMED inside and isn't so easily removed.

Even if I win the protest, what is the protester out? $25.00? And he's still racing, now not having to compete against me for at least a heat. They surely aren't going to hold Heat 2 just to let me get my boat back in shape. Sounds like a winning strategy to me. You said it yourself: "cheaters are going to cheat."... That doesn't necessarily apply to just using a hotter motor. It's not a competitors strategy. Much easier than "team driving" and taking me out in turn 1.

Sorry, but no. It's a waste of time, in my opinion, and it more than "slightly" over-complicates things.

[T.S.Davis]

Pretty sure protests like that are not checked between heats Darin. Used to be for NAMBA it was by committee at the close of racing. I don't remember how IMPBA does at the moment. Has to be similar.

So you would still race and be tech'd after. If you fail you;re dq'd and everyone moves up. Not ideal but is the standard.

[TRUCKPULL]

Top three boats get teched at the end of the day.

Dia., length, and if it looks like it is packed with wire - weight.

Larry

[dethow]

Darin, I think you are being a little over dramatic, sorry... The sky isn't falling.

"a method of protesting and enforcement can be figured out and accomplished with as minimal necessity and invasion as possible"

IOW... if you are running a Dyn2000kv I don't think the system will allow for some A-Hole to cause you to miss a heat.
Also that motor wouldn't need everything removed to make 270g even if a CD did decide to have it pulled.
And I don't think a CD should pull a motor under protest unless it become obvious after size measurements and visual inspection of copper in the can that a motor needs to be pulled and weighed. Some judgements need to be made.
Some of those judgements will include not demanding a motor be pulled until a time in which it doesn't effect the racing of all individuals involved.

Most of the time, this will be a none issue. People with standard (well known) motors in there boats will probably never be protested.
Those that choice to have a manufacture make something weird or someone winds their own and everyone can see there is more copper in that can then most other "standard" motors... well you should expect that you may under go some protests. That's what you signed up for when you choose to pack a legal sized can with as much weight as you can.

Is a CD going to have me pull my 1412s for weight? Probably not because its only 55m long and there's no way there's enough copper in a 55mm can to put it over 270grams. Done.
Is a CD going to pull a TP3630 that measures 61mm long and has copper up to the end bell? Probably... but that will be done in a way as to not ruin anyone's race day.

[Darin Jordan]

Add weights... that's fine. Clubs can do whatever they want.

[dethow]

Sorry, but no. It's a waste of time, in my opinion, and it more than "slightly" over-complicates things.

So Darin... what do we do? What's your idea to get a 1415 type motor out but still be inclusive?
You said you are done... pulling the proposal from NAMBA and everyone else can figure it out.

But yet when a somewhat good idea is explored your using dramatic, sky is falling, illustations to say its a waste of time.

It accomplished the question. Gets the 1415 and similars out. Not a waste of time as I see it.

[dethow]

Add weights... that's fine. Clubs can do whatever they want.

Okay... thanks for opening up a LITTLE.
Now Mike should collect his data and let's build off this.

[Darin Jordan]

Pretty sure protests like that are not checked between heats Darin. Used to be for NAMBA it was by committee at the close of racing. I don't remember how IMPBA does at the moment. Has to be similar.

So you would still race and be tech'd after. If you fail you;re dq'd and everyone moves up. Not ideal but is the standard.

That's probably the intent, Terry, except that NAMBA's rules only address "engines". We run "motors"... oversight, due to us being the redheaded step-childs of the RC boating world, but still clear.

Not sure what IMPBA does. Either way, you are probably right.

Invasive protests can wait until the END of the 4-rounds... whatever.

OK, now I'm done. Don't feel like opening up my mind on this. It's closed. Length/Diameter is my thing. I'll stick with that. Unnecessary tear-downs, in my mind, are just that. Not worth it. I'll race P and Q.

[dethow]

Not worth it. I'll race P and Q.

Yeah... we did it. We got Darin out of limited/spec classes... we did it guys.

Should be obvious. Sorry you feel that way Darin.

You'll be missed. Hopefully we prove you wrong and you join us again someday.

[T.S.Davis]

Darin, you might be over thinking this. Take a breath. It'll be okay. hahaha Have a shmoke n' pancake.

Absolutely not tearing down top three finishers. If someone wants to fork out the dough to file three protests then fine. That is not nor should it be a CD decision IMO.

I really think the number of times that a protest was made would be minimal. If cheating was expected already (I read that in here somewhere).............why aren't there protests now? We've already established there are guys capable or re-winding a motor, swapping bearings, balancing rotors, whatever. It could have been done. Yet nobody has ever protested a motor to my knowledge since the old limited rules passed. Because most everyone knows the rule, complies, and we trust each other. 9 years of the class with rules that could be circumvented and nobody at a race though they were being cheated. Hmmmmmmm. Collective pat on the back fellas.

The frequency of guys tearing down setups I think would be nil even if we did have a weight. Not saying that is necessarily the answer or is entirely necessary but I'm listening.