Mah resitrictions

[Darin Jordan]

If we have unenforceable rules that we've never tech'd then hasn't it all been fun running?

Anybody tech'd a limited motor on site? Looked at the can and called it good didn't ya?

Terry,

Perhaps part of my point. Maybe that's why IMPBA doesn't HAVE P-LTD??

And, YES, to the very best of our abilities, we've "tech'd" P-LTD motors. Much like ROAR, they/we Spec a list of legal motors, all of which can/will be visually inspected. If something is in deeper question, they get further scrutiny.

Much like batteries, however, a good chunk of this it taken on faith.

You can only do the best you can do under the current set of rules. That's what we've been doing.

Now, tech has changed, and also people are wanting a more definitive answer to mAh limitations.

Let's discuss that. Not sure why anger and beating each other up has to come into play. Pragmatism and reason should prevail.

[T.S.Davis]

If we have unenforceable rules that we've never tech'd then hasn't it all been fun running?

Anybody tech'd a limited motor on site? Looked at the can and called it good didn't ya?

[Darin Jordan]

I'll start penciling the proposal to allow both HV and open capacity. Many will be replace all of their power now or all of it later so there's no real reason to wait. Just timing. Might as well flip the switch sooner than later.

I'll stand behind you on this... way, WAY, behind you!! :)

And, in all seriousness.... if you want this to be legit racing, yes, you build and race to the letter of the rules. Otherwise, were just spending a lot of time and money on "fun-runs"...

[T.S.Davis]

Like it or not, in NAMBA we've been using manufacturers labels as the capacity tech bench mark for years. As the rules are written, 5200's paralleled would be illegal. The choice to buy HV cells is the racers to make, not being able to use the full marked capacity as well as how those cells fit within class specs should be considered when making that purchase decision.

Sorry, I'm out of line. Brian didn't write the rules.

The rules don't allow any HV's period. 3.7v nominal only. Always. Every time. Letter of the law. End of discussion.
Don't run more than 10k worth of labels 6s and below. Ever. Letter of the law. End of discussion.

I think I'm going to peel the labels off everything I own regardless of their capacity and make someone figure out what I'm running. 2200's, 3750's, 4000's, ,4500's, 5000's. My 5.8k and 6k's only run in T. Throw on some fresh shrink and no labels. All legal but I want someone to prove me wrong.

The tech is evolving again. There are no provisions for us to phase it in. HV will be illegal one day and legal the very next day. We can't write the rules to anticipate every future change but if there is a way to phase something in without flushing existing gear or giving a distinct advantage to the new tech we should do it. Call it a band-aide.

If we're going to stick to the letters of the law there is no way for us to transition to the new technology. Used to be we would run a proposal for a year for proof of concept but since that's not legal to do we'll have to just go from HV illegal to HV legal over night.

I'll start penciling the proposal to allow both HV and open capacity. Many will be replace all of their power now or all of it later so there's no real reason to wait. Just timing. Might as well flip the switch sooner than later.

[Darin Jordan]

I can go either way..since nambas offshore is 4 minutes I think it's fun trying to get the most out of limited mah.. But I also think it would be cool to not have the restriction to go faster.. Lol..

Yes, all good points. I don't think I'm in disagreement with you on the HV batteries. Clearly an advantage in LTD classes.

So, to be more clear on my point regarding mAh restrictions, I would clearly be in favor of some limits. My issue is HOW DO YOU TECH THEM?? That's the rub.

Maybe that's the question that we need to focus on answering? Personally, I don't see a decent way to do it. Weight seems the most practical, but also has some issues.

Frankly, anytime you put ANY words in a rulebook, you're going to have issues, however. General rule: Don't write it down if you can't enforce it. :)

[rayzerdesigns]

Darin the higher voltage batteries are without a doubt an advantage in limited..I just tested a set in my lsh last week out of my touring car.. Which by the way aren't roar legal as of yet.. First set of my normal pack I run charged to 4.23 per cell 56.1 mph.. Now stepping up to reedy hv cells charged to only 4.5 per cell saw a max of 58.2 mph.. That is significant..like you said not sure they will help much in anything but the limited classes.. But the technology is there..now back to subject of mah restrictions.. I can go either way..since nambas offshore is 4 minutes I think it's fun trying to get the most out of limited mah.. But I also think it would be cool to not have the restriction to go faster.. Lol..

[Darin Jordan]

Wait... I'm trying not to be involved... Oh, well hell... I guess that's blown. :)

The simplest solution would be to rework the rules to remove the mAh restrictions, much like IMBPA has, and then just police maximum voltages, for now.

The trade-off is that people would need to NOT go around bitching if someone shows up with some outside-the-box, use the rules to their benefit, thinking. Is the extra battery weight a good tradeoff for the additional voltage under load? This IS racing, after all. Someone's GOING be better at figuring that stuff out than others. Nature of that beast.

In my opinion, the higher voltage batteries are only an advantage in the LTD classes, which IMPBA doesn't even support/have-rules-for, officially, so for them it's a mute issue for them. Clearly the HV batteries WOULD be an advantage for NAMBA racers, but they aren't exclusive, so at some point, just like with Lipos, everyone has the opportunity to step up.

In the "open motor" classes, while initially costly, you CAN select a motor better suited for the available voltage, which would negate the advantages of the extra voltage in large part, especially when capacity isn't an issue.

The bottom line for me is the following: WHAT CAN BE ENFORCED, Practically speaking??

We can't enforce, with any level of practicality, the existing rules. Mock them if you will, but that's how it is. They were put in place in good faith, but as we have become more sophisticated, perhaps we need to rethink them?

[Darin Jordan]

Sooooo, nobody in NAMBA is allowed to run HV cells regardless of what they are charged to. This is according to our chairman.

Terry, I wouldn't say it's according to our Chairman.... It's the messed up rules, as they are currently written.

Let's point the blame where it belongs. I'm sure Brian doesn't like this any more than anyone else, but it's how the previous members have proposed and voted the rules in.

Let's be honest here; The rules are ALWAYS written based on the presently available technology for FE. It's nearly impossible to imagine and to predict what might come next. Even harder to write rules to consider it. Ridding the nominal voltage and going with a maximum was a start. Obviously not perfect.

We need to work together to fix this. Let's not start pointing fingers. The last thing NAMBA or IMPBA needs is for us to start another internet bickering session. This is NOT a great form of communication. People, for some reason, don't seem to take these as "Cold Beer Conversations"... I'm pretty certain that, were we all sitting at the bar or around a campfire, we'd all still walk away as friends. :)

[jaike5]

Insured if disregarding rules ???, price reduction on entrance fees for non sanctioned event ?
sorry man, every ones thinking it, I'm just say'n it !!

Cheers, Jay.

[T.S.Davis]

Sooooo, nobody in NAMBA is allowed to run HV cells regardless of what they are charged to. This is according to our chairman.

No progress going forward as the next generation are not allowed.

By this thinking there can be no development in NAMBA going forward. New classes like Limited spec once was wont be part of NAMBA's future. Before there was a rule set for "limited" we ran LSH and allowed RTR power. To do so made all the boats illegal.

HV cells WILL be allowed in MI provided they are not charged past 4.23v. We just wont sanction the race. So no records. Sorry guys.

[RandyatBBY]

Randy,

Just for the sake of clarifying... NAMBA already has UNLIMITED paralleling. In other words, there are NO restrictions on Paralleling in the present NAMBA rules. Only mAh limits.

ya I knew that. I go by what the label says and do not go over this would help a lot.

[RandyatBBY]

The 16.9 with the P hydro was crazy.

Other than that, 5 week grand jury duty. 5-6 cases a day, all felonies all the the time! You just can't bleach some of that stuff out of your mind.

Built a few new molds. Spent a lot of time on prop development. Being Dad every day and working on the house. Normal stuff.

Any of you guys going to make it out for the Nats?

Do Not think so I was, but Hot August night in Reno is too close.

[Doug Smock]

Like it or not, in NAMBA we've been using manufacturers labels as the capacity tech bench mark for years. As the rules are written, 5200's paralleled would be illegal. :

Thanks, that's all I needed.

[raptor347]

Thanks for posting Brian, good to know your thoughts on this.

We're trying to figure what we're going to do for the Michigan race.
Are HV 5200s charged to 4.2 v/cell (capacity would be around 4680) in a 4s2p configuration legal to race in P class?

Thanks

Like it or not, in NAMBA we've been using manufacturers labels as the capacity tech bench mark for years. As the rules are written, 5200's paralleled would be illegal. The choice to buy HV cells is the racers to make, not being able to use the full marked capacity as well as how those cells fit within class specs should be considered when making that purchase decision.

When going racing, it's the racers job to comply (or not, depending on the racers morality) with the rules as written, good or bad. Let's face it, rules range from really good to really bad. NAMBA's capacity rule doesn't fall under the "good" end of the spectrum, the term "flawed" comes to mind. That being said, for the time being we're stuck with what we have. There's no mechanism in NAMBA that I know of to arbitrarily disregard any given rule.

It's pretty obvious that we all recognize there's an issue. NAMBA's rule change process takes some time, each organization does it differently. In the mean time, racers need to practice a little due diligence and do their best to comply with the rule set we have. It's not really that tough.

The point of this discussion is to figure out what direction we want to take going forward.

BTW. Soaking your batteries until the labels fall off is really hard on the tabs.

[Doug Smock]

Thanks for posting Brian, good to know your thoughts on this.

We're trying to figure what we're going to do for the Michigan race.
Are HV 5200s charged to 4.2 v/cell (capacity would be around 4680) in a 4s2p configuration legal to race in P class?

Thanks