Mah resitrictions

[raptor347]

The battery thing is going to require a crystal ball I think.

That particular cat is going to get continuously harder to herd.

[raptor347]

I'm not saying stop running it. P-ltd is a great class. It's helped the hobby. It should still run at big races and as an exhibition class at nationals. Because of the tech issues, it shouldn't be an official/set in stone class or qualify for records.

Let's face it, stock/spec classes have a finite life span. When supplies of the critical component dry up, you find the next stock/spec class to fill the void.

[T.S.Davis]

Would it be valid to say that P-LTD could be run at the Nationals, but wouldn't be eligible for records or even official "National Championships"??

Some complained that the mere participation numbers made an FE nats not a nats at all so I guess in keeping with tradition we call them interstellar championships.

I don't want to lose it either. It's our top seller so to speak.

The battery thing is going to require a crystal ball I think.

[Darin Jordan]

Would it be valid to say that P-LTD could be run at the Nationals, but wouldn't be eligible for records or even official "National Championships"??

The class DOES bring a lot of blood to the events.

That being said, one of my previous rule thoughts on P-LTD motors would eliminate this problem, but would require people to get out of the RTR motor mentality, and adopt more of a "standardized motor parameter" through process. I suppose a list could still be provided. Much like ROAR.

Thoughts for another thread.

Sorry, not trying to "dominate the discussion". Just working a support session here today at work that doesn't need much support.

[Darin Jordan]

Should have ditched the nominal wording then.

Some of us TRIED!! Fears (that some might regard as irrational.. ) of future battery technologies caused the majority to feel those needed to be there.

How ironic...

[T.S.Davis]

-Make sure racers running standard cells aren't unsafely overcharging their cells to try to compete.

Did this at the last cup. The highest voltage I found was a cheap O' Zippy pack. 4.21v. I was cruising the pits with the meter all weekend.

I can't remember for sure but I don't think anyone applied for a record last cup.

[T.S.Davis]

Great stuff Brian. Thanks for the effort man. Really. Most of what you typed confirms what I thought I knew.

Limited spec is an awesome set of classes and has been a boon to our hobby but being subject to the supply chain has been challenging. From manufacturing hiccups to manufacturer discontinuing entire motor lines. It's been endless. Guys have left FE over those cheap motors. But this was true of 700 motors too though. There was always controversy. I still would encourage clubs to run as close to the original spec as possible just for parity and participation. They're still the most contested classes at most major events.

[raptor347]

Guys we are all very passionate about our hobby but we MUST keep this discussion on the surface.

Thinking about your PM last night. Not feeling the love.

[T.S.Davis]

We screwed the pooch on this when we added the charge voltages. Should have ditched the nominal wording then.

Just what if'n.....

Drop the mah restriction completely
Lose the "3.7v nominal" wording

This creates the transition phase that IMPBA is already into.

Then specify a date after which we up the maximum charged voltage.

[raptor347]

I did quite a bit of reading last night and a couple phone calls this morning. Here's what we ended up with:
-3.7V nominal, 4.23V max and capacity are part of the racing rules, not the safety rules.
-You can sanction a race using HV cells, it should be stated on the race flier that these cells will be allowed and no records can be set.
-You need to define the maximum pack voltages and capacity limits (if any) for the classes being run.
-Make sure racers running standard cells aren't unsafely overcharging their cells to try to compete.

You can legally run HV cells at the local level, no problem. Someone should be running them for a baseline if nothing else.

The only events where the racing rules are truly set in stone are:
-Any sanctioned event resulting in record applications
-Nationals
-Time trials.

The safety rules are set in stone and everyone should take the time to reread them at the start of each season.

Terry, you're covered. The Cup will be a great race, wish I had time and cash to make it back. The records thing is what it is. Think of the paperwork you won't have to do.

With regard to P-ltd. IMPBA did it right. In all seriousness, I completely agree we made a mistake. It should never have been made a national class and definitely not a record legal class. The motors are inconsistent, even if we tore them down to the windings we wouldn't get reasonable spec ranges from different batches. I think we should get rid of that power catagory because it's truly un-techable. Please write the proposal and I'll happily back it.

If anyone wants to talk to me directly, my phone number is in the contacts list on the NAMBA web site. I'm going to go splash some glue around the shop.

[rayzerdesigns]

Honestly, I'd say that the only time these rules REALLY apply would be at a National event. Clubs can/will do whatever they want. That's how the "year worth of trial run" happens.

Hard line on the rules... Yes... at some point, you need to do that. Then, when you realize how broken they really are, you argue online for 6-months.... Right??

It's clearly that time... time for a review and rewrite in order to adapt. But, just like P-LTD motors... just because there is a new mouse-trap available, doesn't mean it should be included at a National event... not yet, I wouldn't think.

I do like how it has to be written then submitted and voted on for a rule change.. I think it makes the Nationals or s big event that wants to follow nambas rules.. Say we allow hv cells now.. Well that would leave a lot of people scrambling to get cells for nationals just a few months away..terry write the proposal and submit it.. Then we can start the new year off with new stuff..I will tell you that rosr has had the hv cells for a while testing them.. For well over 6 months and haven't approved them.. Which seems interesting.. I will also tell u u won't just throw an hv cell or cells straight into ur current p limited setup.. U will burn some stuff up.. U are adding rpms and heat.. I have tested with them.. But I am also all for them.. But until it's written up and submitted and voted on.. We have what we have.. They wouldn't be voted on till years end and legal if passed till next year..

[Darin Jordan]

For the record. I am not yelling at Darin in any way. I'm not typing from the floor so I can kick my feet either.

Honestly, I'd say that the only time these rules REALLY apply would be at a National event. Clubs can/will do whatever they want. That's how the "year worth of trial run" happens.

Hard line on the rules... Yes... at some point, you need to do that. Then, when you realize how broken they really are, you argue online for 6-months.... Right??

It's clearly that time... time for a review and rewrite in order to adapt. But, just like P-LTD motors... just because there is a new mouse-trap available, doesn't mean it should be included at a National event... not yet, I wouldn't think.

[T.S.Davis]

For the record. I am not yelling at Darin in any way. I'm not typing from the floor so I can kick my feet either.

Doug, I'm looking forward to coming down to your fun run in a few weeks.

[Doug Smock]

Yes the issues with teching is why the IMPBA hasn't officially adopted the Limited classes. I imagine that's why they don't have capacity limits as well.

Guys we are all very passionate about our hobby but we MUST keep this discussion on the surface.

I posted that link to the red board as a reminder of where we don't want to go.

I don't have an answer for capacity limits. Sorry we're in this situation..........

D.

[T.S.Davis]

My point is that we're suggesting a hard line on the "rules" even though historically we haven't taken that hard line.

No HV even if kept with legal limits. No mah in excess of the letter of the law (on the labels of course) even if (in theory) they are kept within legal limits. Failure to comply with this is just fun running.

We're not hard lining the rules right now. Not where power is concerned. We can't and we haven't. Because it's not possible/practical.

The letter of the law says 10000mah under Q. I tell my charger to shut off at 4.2v. I don't know for sure how many mah I'm carrying. I bought 10k but I don't really know anything. Nowhere in the letter of the law does it say anything about the labels on my packs. Says I can carry 10k. Am I? Don't know. It is however my job as a racer to know. Brian mentioned that. My responsibility. I don't however have the ability or the equipment to verify that I'm legal.

I guess I want some reasonable/practical application of a rule set that we all understand has problems. The power was a compromise form the start because we couldn't move forward at the time. Needs an update. Pretty sure we're all thinking that way.

What I don't want is anyone fearing that they will be not allowed to race at an event because we're hard line enforcing a rule that has never ever been verified before. A pair of 5200 HV's charged to just 4.2 volts should not be a problem for any venue. That guy is carrying the correct voltage and is under on mah.....in theory of course.