More limited motor discussion

[Darin Jordan]

Thanks Darin......I guess when I hear Terry talking about the 6-pole advantage I need to listen better &
put more thought on the subject. Btw Terry or Darin, which motors brands are currently 6-pole ?

Ken, the only 6-Pole motors I know of are the current list, plus the SSS/Pro Marine Motor. May be more out there, but these are the ones I know about.

As for the 4-Pole vs. 6, my guess is that the Neu was pulling 20-30 Amps more to turn that same prop. With the 4-Poles, you need to unload them a bit and let them spin.


Don't feel "dumb"... only reason I know this is because I saw it first-hand on the test bench.

[dethow]

…but it looks like if you open the motor spec up to allow decent non RTR motors, you will allow full on P power with it, which is likely to kill either the limited or the full P class.

Actually this is specifically why a weight limit is being discussed and examined. So that full on P power does NOT make its way into the class. Otherwise, from what MMEU has seen along with what we’ve heard elsewhere, opening up the class to more motor options is not going to hurt the limited/spec classes or the full P class. Speeds are not drastically different from what they were.

I'm more confident than I have been in a while that we're getting somewhere.

I think that feeling is running through most of us. Not only are we getting somewhere, but I think the end result is going to be very inclusive and long lasting. And although not as easy to tech as simple dimensions only... there will still be a black and white techable rule in place that will be far less invasive then what several other groups are put through.
Group hugs!

[Doug Smock]

LOL Terry, I know, I know.. Just saying. Rally around Mike. If it doesn't pan out it's past time to drive on. These discussions have turned more potential racers away than a National rule set would ever bring to the pond. The MMEU proved you can offer these classes without a National rule set. Thanks for that! Yes let's everyone focus on what Mike is doing and put this to bed one way or the other!!

[Darin Jordan]

Rally around Mike.

GO, MIKE, GO!!!

[longballlumber]

Doug, if you want to have an FE nats (some of us still like those) moving forward you have to include the power level that brings the boys to the pond.

This is happening in 2018 and the class wasn’t in the rule book. What makes you think it can’t or won’t happen in the future?

You also need Joe new guy that's surf'n the web, to find the IMPBA rule book, sift through and find classes that there are actually boats running in. Heats to land in. So......racing can happen.

I am not saying it can’t happen, but I am willing to stick my neck out there and suggest this would be the exception rather than the rule. Joe new guy goes to the hobby shop, plops down some money, and walks out with a new toy only to find OUT later people actually race them. We have current IMPBA members that probably don’t even read the rule book. Hell, I need to read it again. Suggesting that Joe new guy is going to read the rule book, and magically show up at a local pond ready to race is a pretty big leap.

The IMPBA has NEVER had a P-limited or P-Spec rule set in the national rule book. I don’t think that has kept anyone away from the hobby. If they want to race boats they are going to figure out how to race boats.

Right now, a guy opens the book, see's 4 pages on brushed N1 motors and figures that's a great place to start. "Hey, I got a whole box of those old motors! Woohoo!" Or he builds a 2s open boat thinking it will be a cheap way to get going. Been 8 years since I heat raced one. I have 6 on the rack still. Or he could maybe build a 70mph P rigger on the cheap. Good place to start?

Sorry Terry, but N Stock and N Super Stock is still active at the record trials level. As a matter of fact, it was being run just a few weeks ago.

Besides, what new guy is going to read 4 pages on brushed motors and WANT to get into that class. 4 pages of rules makes me want to avoid that class! LOL I believe there are provisions in the rules that allow ROAR approved motors. If that is the case, brushless motors are approved. I would need to read up to be 100% sure.

N is the still active, as well, at the record trials level. Heck, you and Ty were running N class for records just 3 years(?) ago. I would need to double check, but I think there is a club that is actively running some sort of N class.

With this type of activity how do we just abolish the class along with records associated with it?

Open racing is fine for some but based on the many guys I've personally trained/mentored/whatever ya call it..................P is a horrible place to start. I've got guys that have raced for a few years now that can barely handle limited.

I find some irony in this statement. The MMEU club is running more “Full P” classes than it ever has.

With the historical experience of LSH and P-ltd, another option is flush this rule set and come up with something a bit more stable/flexible using that past experience.

Doug and I both agree with Brian. This is the path Mike is currently helping us navigate. I'm more confident than I have been in a while that we're getting somewhere.

I think we all agree that any “Spec” and or “Limited” WILL NOT be allowed for records. The BOD has already shown the ability to approve an FE Nats allowing the host club to include a “Spec” or “Limited” power source for a national award. With those two items addressed, what other benefits does the IMPBA get by adding a Spec or Limited Rule Set?

[T.S.Davis]

Thought about typing this with no capitals so it didn't sound like I was yelling in any way. Cuz I aint.

Encouraging guys to build 2s powered boats so they can do 6 to 10 laps per year isn't going to help guys get involved in racing. Time trials is a very tiny niche piece of racing. I checked. It was 2015 that Ty ran N sport. So yes 3 years ago. The fact that I personally own multiple N boats is not an indication that the class is active and flourishing. I'm a super freak. My collection isn't normal. Haines picked up boats from the fastest 2s stock guy in the world and handed them off to Fede while he learns. That's not normal either. It's also not an indication that the class is "active". We were barely able to field heats at the nationals which is supposed to be the "big" race of the year.

The BOD allowed spec classes at a nats because the numbers don't lie. Without them "allowing" it there would be no FE nats for 2018. Pretty sure they knew that.

MMEU is up to one P class for points. We did try to run P mono for exhibition at 4 races. In truth I discouraged guys when P mono was first talked about. I didn't think many of our drivers could handle it. They did better than I thought they would though. By the end of the season we weren't getting enough entries for it. We used to run Q for points but Q was too hairy on our puddle. I don't think we've ever had more than one full P class for points.

The point of having a national rule set is that clubs, both new and old, would have a point of reference if/when they decide to form some FE heats. Then when the new guy shows up with that boat he walked out of the hobby shop with.........maybe......there is a chance............. he'll find that a club is running what he bought. Then if/when racers decide to see what's going on in the next town they might maybe find........."hey them guys run the same crap we run". Then if/when those same guys inquire about traveling to race like the a Spring nats............."wonder what they run there? What? Same stuff? Heck ya! We should go."

My mindset in suggesting that 2s should go away and basically be replaced by spec is formation of heats. N does not make heats. Spec does. It's really that simple. Make N a trials only thing like S or something.

I totally do not agree with spec not being allowed for records. Why not? Back when we were struggling with the tech aspect I agreed but length x width x weight isn't sounding too horrible to check. Especially the way Mike described it. We just established we're going to keep all the N classes forever because they're run at trials one or two times per year. But........the most popular FE power level since the battery...............no records. Can't understand that.

I'm so confused by the opposition to these classes at the national level. They're so clearly the most contested FE classes in NAMBA. It aint close either. They're also the most popular FE classes in IMPBA. IMPBA events run under rules they don't actually have. We have to check every time we travel what rules they'll run. What am I missing?

[Doug Smock]

The BOD disagrees..... End of story... I'm out fellas. Behave yourselves..

[T.S.Davis]

The BOD disagrees..... End of story... I'm out fellas. Behave yourselves..

With what Doug?

[NativePaul]

Hi Paul,
Yes sir ''The motor is the fuse" mentality is what got this party started. Current limiters and fuses have been beat to death through the years.

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...or+is+the+fuse
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...-AMPs-Thoughts
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...tor-discussion
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...n-the-hot-seat
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...tor-discussion
https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...lines-for-2015

And it goes on and on......

I just read those links and while there is a fair few references to fuses I didnt see any results from trying one which isnt surprising as they have some obvious drawbacks, and the only reference to electronic power or energy limiters was by me, 3 years ago, when energy limiters were still just a concept. At this point 3 years down the line, they have peen prototyped, tested, been produced by 3 different manufacturers, and their production units have been tested and have proven themselves and the system well enough to have made the rules in many individual countries, and in Naviga.

An electronic limiter is a very different beast to a fuse:
They don't add huge amounts of resistance to your circuit.
They aren't being pushed to near melting point.
The purchase price is higher, but you dont need to replace one every time you push the limits.
They come either with silicone wires for your connectors or conectors presoldered and dont need holders, they can easily be wired in like dataloggers (which they essentially are).
They wont just cut of motor power causing rear end collisions, they all have a pass-through to the ESC so they can ramp down the power over time, all the curently available energy limiters have a selectable ramp down time.
2/3 of the energy limiters can ramp down to a selectable baseline, so if you want people to have for example 10% power for steerage so they can keep inside the course on a windy day you can do that.
The energy limiters have a reactivation timer so that eg 90 seconds after it ramps down your power, it gives you power back, enabling you to drive back in, avoiding the need for rescue.
The energy limiters all have 4 different selectable power levels, by default they will come with the Naviga legal levels, but those limits are subject to change so they are programable either at the factory on purchase or via a box available to racemasters, so you could have different ones for P ltd, P ltd Offshore, a cheaper N2 ltd (to replace N2 that P ltd seems to have killed off), and maybe Q ltd for the newer 6s RTRs with 40mm cans that cant make it in full Q.

[NativePaul]

Blah blah, I could waffle on for hours, but probably shouldn't.

[dethow]

I probably know way too little to voice an opinion on this, but I will anyway.

What Terry is saying makes sense regarding a national rule set for a “spec” class and having records for them. They are very popular and WILL get the largest draw.

And I can’t understand the thought process behind just letting local clubs have their own “spec” rules and having IMPBA approve each clubs take on “spec” prior to a national event such as the one MMEU is holding this year.
This just adds unnecessary costs to visiting racers and an advantage to the host club racers. If each club has their own rules, traveling racers may have to keep changing their motors to accommodate different rules. And the host club will have the advantage due to having had much more time spent running and setting up their boats to those motors.

I don’t know the answer to this, but I’d assume a goal of the IMPBA BODs should be to make the club desirable so that more clubs/members are drawn in.
IF IMPBA does nothing and IF NAMBA moves forward with changes to the limited class and let’s assume they go with the diameter x length x weight… they will have a simple national rule set that is run at local and national levels along with records for all the ensuing classes from those rulers. Result will be that NAMBA will be the more desirable association for FE racing. No doubt about it.

[T.S.Davis]

The BOD disagrees..... End of story... I'm out fellas. Behave yourselves..

BTW The BOD didn't disagree with everything that was proposed by MMEU.

2s for ever and ever amen.
1/8 scale motor list stays.
1/8 registration stays.
Twins will still require a single battery source same as before. So two batteries get harnessed to be one and then get split to two esc.

Stuff that stuck.....sort of....
Requiring FE boats to be on plane at 30 seconds will have a 20 second option. Currently if you are not moving at the 30 second mark you did not start.
On spec, my understanding is that guys were actually well versed on it but in the end felt it needed more work. The weight thing seems a good addition to me. For the record, I was totally against that but Mike has done a pretty good job convincing me. Although I'm still not certain it's actually something IMPBA wants.

[raptor347]

We really are working our way to a new class, it will just include what we've all been running for the last 8-10 years.

I didn't agree with P-ltd for records in NAMBA because there was no way to truly tech the motors. I'd be happy if they were deleted from the record book under the current rules, and I own several of them.

Spec motors at time trials are absolutely the fuse, no choice, no argument. Better off spending the money on a real motor and running an open class for TT's (sound familiar Ken, how many N stock motors?).

Had a good talk with Mike (your FE Lordship), we're heading in a good direction.

[photohoward1]

Requiring FE boats to be on plane at 30 seconds will have a 20 second option. Currently if you are not moving at the 30 second mark you did not start.
On spec, my understanding is that guys were actually well versed on it but in the end felt it needed more work. The weight thing seems a good addition to me. For the record, I was totally against that but Mike has done a pretty good job convincing me. Although I'm still not certain it's actually something IMPBA wants.

Why only electric for this requirement? The Gassers in Atlanta would crawl to the line at idle. Drove me crazy. They call it the Cajun Crawl. (for another thread I guess)

[dethow]

I didn't agree with P-ltd for records in NAMBA because there was no way to truly tech the motors. I'd be happy if they were deleted from the record book under the current rules, and I own several of them.

Taking this statement and trying to say this is why IMPBA should not allow a limited/spec class to have records is unfair. Brian is saying he didn’t agree with the NAMBA P-ltd records because can’t tech the motors. True and fair statement. But that statement doesn’t apply if we end up with a measurements and weight rule. There WOULD be a way to truly tech the motors. It’d be easier and less invasive to tech then some gas/nitro classes… but yet they have rules and records.
This feels like discrimination… Just sayin’