More limited motor discussion

[CraigP]

Motors are not free energy devices! You don’t get “free torque” because of a winding. Given that the class has a specified voltage, the only change to the dynometer would be for kv. That would be a resistor value change, easily implemented with a selector switch. Timing makes no difference, only changes the impedance of the power transfer between ESC and motor. There’s a “sweet timing” and all else is a loss. It’s like tuning a resonant mode circuit.

Facts are facts, everything you have been discussing are teqniques to increase torque, which is HP. You all seem to be protecting your way of modifying, while shutting down avenues to others. Power at the prop shaft is the only measurement that takes all your little tricks into account. Hell, keep doing what you want, but if you go over the max torque, your out. It’s not the tech crew’s job to tell you specifically why you’re over torque, it’s your responsibility to make sure it’s compliant.

All other “uphill” checks will always leave things in a subjective light. Motors change with the manufacturer’s, how the hell are you going to keep up? Bottom line, this shifts the responsibility from the tech crew to the racer. It’s a fast check and certainly less intrusive than pulling your motor and somebody taking a micrometer to it. That’s crazy, not the dynometer idea...

[dethow]

Hell, keep doing what you want, but if you go over the max torque, your out. It’s not the tech crew’s job to tell you specifically why you’re over torque, it’s your responsibility to make sure it’s compliant.

So if I could get this straight... I don't have a dynometer and I should just keep doing what I want, but then the tech crew is going to come over and tell me I have to much torque and not provide me any information on why that may be.
I just don't get to race. I don't get to race in an event I traveled how many miles to get to and cost me how much money in travel expenses because I don't have a dynometer. Because I won't know the results until I get there and even once I get the results I'll have no idea how to get legal.
Buts it okay... its all my fault because its my responsibility to make sure it's compliant. My responsibility even thou I don't have a dynometer.

Good luck with that...

But wait... all is good. I'll just change my esc timing and get it within the torque limit.
Or wait... maybe I'll just turn down the throttle limits on my remote.
I think we can all guess what's going to happen when that tech crew leaves my pit.

I can't believe this is even kinda in the conversation.

I'm out... have a good weekend all. Go USA Olympic team

[Doug Smock]

LOL Take a deep cleansing breath......... ok, good..........aaand exhale..... now, repeat and we'll see everyone Monday.

[CraigP]

Well you’re right about that, there are tweaks that could be made. So really, if it’s you're intent to go all out (in a limited class) to gain an advantage, then there’s really no way to tech it all out. This is exactly why I don’t race. All of this conversation is really not would I would call a positive PR campaign for class racing. It’s just too much hassle and the politics really take a lot of fun out of it. I leave this up to you guys to sort out... Time for the weekend!

[Doug Smock]

Well you’re right about that, there are tweaks that could be made. So really, if it’s you're intent to go all out (in a limited class) to gain an advantage, then there’s really no way to tech it all out. This is exactly why I don’t race. All of this conversation is really not would I would call a positive PR campaign for class racing. It’s just too much hassle and the politics really take a lot of fun out of it. I leave this up to you guys to sort out... Time for the weekend!

And you're right about that.

Ok fellas, a forum first. A forced break. I'll open the thread back up on Monday morning.
If Steven thinks I have done this in error he can smack my hand and open it back up sooner.
Don't start a new thread, I'll be watching. lol

[Doug Smock]

Good morning fellas, hope everyone had a great weekend!

Listen guys. The dimension proposal was rejected by the IMPBA BOD at a recent meeting. There was no contest. There is no need for any more discussion on that, it won't be revisited.

Mike Ball is our new National Fast Electric Director. Information on who, what, where, when, and why, will be published in the April Roostertail.

It is important to know that Mike is currently working at the direction of the IMPBA BOD on behalf of the membership. It is in our best interest to support him in his in his efforts to accomplish the task before him. These are unique classes and require a unique approach. Mike is seeking information on motor dimensions and weight. This IS the current path of the IMPBA. Remember, no racing rule goes into the rulebook without a one year trial and a membership vote. Lets see where this takes us.

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...ing-motor-data

Thanks for taking this on Mike!"


For the sake of keeping these discussions as clean as possible please take the NAMBA discussion to this thread. https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...n-the-hot-seat

[jaike5]

Congrats Mike, I feel good that your the FE national director of IMPBA. I'm sure you will get everything aligned the way it should be.
Cheers, Jay.

[rayzerdesigns]

Good morning fellas, hope everyone had a great weekend!

Listen guys. The dimension proposal was rejected by the IMPBA BOD at a recent meeting. There was no contest. There is no need for any more discussion on that, it won't be revisited.

Mike Ball is our new National Fast Electric Director. Information on who, what, where, when, and why, will be published in the April Roostertail.

It is important to know that Mike is currently working at the direction of the IMPBA BOD on behalf of the membership. It is in our best interest to support him in his in his efforts to accomplish the task before him. These are unique classes and require a unique approach. Mike is seeking information on motor dimensions and weight. This IS the current path of the IMPBA. Remember, no racing rule goes into the rulebook without a one year trial and a membership vote. Lets see where this takes us.

https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...ing-motor-data

Thanks for taking this on Mike!"


For the sake of keeping these discussions as clean as possible please take the NAMBA discussion to this thread. https://forums.offshoreelectrics.com...n-the-hot-seat

Just so everyone knows.. NAMBA proposal for size limit was pulled.. until this is figured out.

[T.S.Davis]

I'm pretty comfortable with the current direction. It's all just data collection now. Length x width x weight = done

I do know that the BOD has had this discussion. Apparently they were pretty well versed. There was a time the BOD members wouldn't have given us a thought. These days they're engaged though. Very cool times. They're on board with finding a viable setup. Something that not only works but will hold up for a while. So no worries guys. They'll get it. With some help from Mr. Ball. Just be patient. Honestly I'm very encouraged.

Craig, you can't limit torque. Different boats like different things. A rigger for instance (most of them) wants rpm. They weigh nothing and if done correctly have very little drag. Torque is less important. So maybe 2300kv with a seemingly small prop. Let er rip. Where as a mono run in offshore is accelerating a out of many turns. Usually run wet because the water gets weird by lap three. For that you need to get out of the hole as quickly as possible. More blade in the water. You need torque for that.

We're not defining a power spec for a single type of boat. There are multiple hull and race types we're covering with this.

Wonder if I'll have to call Mike by "yer lordship" or something. haha

[Steven Vaccaro]

I think the whole thing is over complicated at this point.

You are taking a system that really worked well for many years and are now tossing it. WHY? Because no one moved with the times. The motor list got old and became worthless.

My suggestion would be this. Start a board that deals with the spec motors, make a list of allowed motors. Then review and add on a annual or biannual basis.

[T.S.Davis]

I've admitted multiple times that we blew it on the original rule set. We were ignorant. Worked because guys were pretty trust worthy.

This new direction...........we're completely un-complicating it. How is length, width, weight complicated? Ever see what the gas guys are up against for tech if required? Yikes. haha How about an N1 brushed motor check? 4 pages in the book on how to do that.

We can't do another list either. Change it every year through an act of congress? Then we would need parameters for a motor to be allowed ON to the list. Then we also have to prove that a motor on site is actually as manufactured. You couldn't have a list and then allow modifications to motors on the list. That's where we are now. List of motors we can't tech and prove are correct. I don't want to ever check a motor. That's my dream but if I had to.............I need to be able to prove it's correct. With a list that's subject to manufacturing whim it's impossible.

example: Next time you see an AQ 2030......tell me if it's been re-wound. There could be two 2030's still in their original boxes side by side built on different dates with different thickness wires. Which one is the right one? They both are. Now go back and figure out if the another was re-wound. This is kinda what Smock has been saying to me for years. The ability to know beyond a doubt that a motor is as specified by the rule set didn't exist. We were taking it on faith. Faith never bit us on the butt as far as I know. The FE crowd is pretty respectable in my experience but it did allow a shadow of doubt to creep into the race results. Others looked at the results and said hmmmmmmm.

Another thing I'm excited about is that NAMBA is trying to put together something based on the same parameters. Meaning that no matter what organizations events you attend you should have a legal setup. How cool will that be! None of this trying to figure out what's legal crap.

[Doug Smock]

I'm pretty comfortable with the current direction. It's all just data collection now. Length x width x weight = done

I do know that the BOD has had this discussion. Apparently they were pretty well versed. There was a time the BOD members wouldn't have given us a thought. These days they're engaged though. Very cool times. They're on board with finding a viable setup. Something that not only works but will hold up for a while. So no worries guys. They'll get it. With some help from Mr. Ball. Just be patient. Honestly I'm very encouraged.
Wonder if I'll have to call Mike by "yer lordship" or something. haha

I was impressed with the discussion at the meeting. The BOD is indeed engaged!

"Yer Lordship" lol Wonder if we can make that stick? You know, once he earns it...

[dethow]

I'm very happy with the direction this all seems to be heading.
Not as SIMPLE as several would have liked but still a very techible rule set at diameter x length x weight.


I honestly do feel for Darin and Terry as they have both been on the front lines for pretty much every single discussion on this issue. Them along with many others including myself on quit a few threads. We all thought we were close to a finish line and nothing left to do but race....

And not to mention Doug and other moderators who have had to read pretty much every word on these discussions.

We've had a bump in the road. But I really believe an important issue has been brought to the forefront and is in the works of being fixed.

I have complete faith that Mr. Mike Ball and the IMPBA BOD will put together a good proposal that will be best for the class and hobby. The proposal will also be good enough to make it through a one year trial and membership vote.
Probably get some votes from people basically says... "YES, please lord just make this discussion end!"

And I, like Terry, hope NAMBA and its BOD will end up with a similar if not exact same rule set for their limited class.

[Darin Jordan]

[IMPBA_HAT=ON]

If "we" (IMPBA ) can come up with a set of weights to add to the dimensions, and a CLEAR and concise and MINIMALLY INVASIVE way to TECH it, AND we can END this discussion once and for all, then I'll be happy to dive in one more time and work with Ray and Dave N. and whoever else to get this equivalent rule through the NAMBA system. It seems like there are going to have to be additional words involved, which is always dangerous, but if someone smarter than me can figure all that out, we'd like nothing more than to have equivalent rules so we can all be one happy family. :)

[/IMPBA_HAT]

[T.S.Davis]

"Yer Lordship" lol Wonder if we can make that stick? You know, once he earns it...

Back when I was appointed to the NAMBA chair thing, Dan Chase told me I was officially everybody's bitch.

If he signs up I may go into the signups for the Nats and change his name.