Turbine scales

[T.S.Davis]

Back in 2008 we held a race up here in MI. We knew the numbers were going to be low so we combined some classes. Called them something like Ultimate Sprint or some such nonsense. Basically we ran Q,S, and T hydro together. We ended up with a 3 boat heat. Two T rigger and Q cat. Twaits laid down a heat time of 1 minute and some change. 61 seconds I think. Spooky fast even by two lap standards. Goose bumps fast for 2008.

The record application was denied because it wasn't a real class even though the boat tech'd out.

Open is typically as defined by the host club. However, I doubt that gives us the freedom to allow plutonium power.

Although........I wonder if the insurance policy specifies no plutonium. Does it specify Lithium Polymer, Ion, Ferrite, NiMh, Nicd, LeadAcid? Or does it just say "gas, nitro, battery, but not turbine"?

Lithium Polymer and Nitro methane = perfectly safe
Turbine = certain death

[Chilli]

Although........I wonder if the insurance policy specifies no plutonium. Does it specify Lithium Polymer, Ion, Ferrite, NiMh, Nicd, Lead Acid? not turbine"?

Don't forget "Steam"

[jaike5]

You are right Mike,

we have all used the slang term of "open" when it is really T, limited by hull size and cells for electric and cc/in for the fossil burners.

I hope the insurance company isn't reading this form where we have rules from NAMBA/IMPBA which we are insured for then can rewrite them on the race flier. woh! (Not being Sarcastic)

Cheers, Jay.

[Doug Smock]

All the insurance company cares about is that the safety rules are followed. They don't know anything about the boats and don't care what boats run in what class as long as they don't exceed the maximum length, weight, displacement, and voltage.

''Open'' has always meant any legal hull. Typically you'll see open, mono, hydro, and offshore. We ran a "unlimited" class at the Spring Nationals the last two years. That class consists of ANY legal IMPBA boat. No rules were broken.

Nobody said anything about there only being two classes. Let's not make this harder than it is.

[T.S.Davis]

I hope the insurance company isn't reading this form where we have rules from NAMBA/IMPBA which we are insured for then can rewrite them on the race flier. woh! (Not being Sarcastic)

I can't speak for IMPBA but for NAMBA it's supposed to be that violation of the safety rules is the only way to lose coverage. We're not insured based on the heat racing rules. If that's the case then every offshore course that's unorthodox renders a whole site uninsured. Not the case of course.

This is part of what's wrong with the safety rules in my opinion. If you're only insured for certain power sources that should be in there. If it's gas/nitro/battery put it in there. Apparently there are insurance limits that have never been relayed to the membership. Makes me wonder what other requirements or limitations are in there that we're unaware of.

[T.S.Davis]

and voltage.:

Doug, did IMPBA put the max in their safety rules?

[Doug Smock]

Doug, did IMPBA put the max in their safety rules?

Yes sir. Max voltage per class that works out to be 4.23 v/cell.

[T.S.Davis]

Wait, you have max voltages for each class in the safety rules?

[Doug Smock]

Wait, you have max voltages for each class in the safety rules?

Yes sir. It keeps things simple for the tech inspectors. No math to do like the old +/- 17% rule.

[D. Newland]

We can debate what is and is not covered under NAMBA/IMPBA insurance forever. Nothing will change and no new information will be presented. The policy just isn't going to be made public.

Stay within the rule book to ensure coverage, and to ensure our insurance policy's future. I'll elaborate on that in a bit. Todd-you're just not going to find what you are looking for unless you write up a proposal and get it passed by Dist 2 and then NAMBA.

OK, please consider a different angle on this topic.

If something happens out on the pond with a boat that does not fit the rules (a 12S Mono or Todd's turbine) , NAMBA/IMPBA insurance will most likely open a claim, depending on the severity of the accident. It most certainly will open a claim if there is an attorney involved. It may or may not be covered, but a claim will be opened and investigated to see if there is coverage.

After that investigation and claim acceptance or denial, the file will move to the insurance company's Underwriting Dept.

That's when things can go downhill fast for either organization.

Underwriting will give a rectal exam to the claim file and the organization in general, then decide if they want to continue coverage. Guess what they would decide if a 12S Mono or a Turbine caused injury to somebody? Cancellation. Even if a claim was denied.

Please trust me on this. I'm not blowing smoke. I've done this sort of thing. They will consider the risk too great and drop coverage.

And, I doubt the organization will find coverage with another company either. Why? Because the claim will have to be disclosed on any new application for insurance. The new company's Underwriting Dept will give a rectal exam to the application and probably decide, "no thanks". Too much risk.

It could literally be the end of our organization. Our insurance is everything. Without it, we're nothing.

IMO, we will continue to see NAMBA making decisions and rules that tightens up our organization, all in the name of safety, which in turn keeps our insurance viable.

Lastly, I've heard and read something like, "It's OK, I have AMA insurance. I can run my 16S boat". Trust me again, if you are a NAMBA member and also have AMA and/or Homeowners insurance, you don't get to decide which insurance gets to protect you. If you hurt someone (and especially if an attorney is involved), all of your available insurances (home/renters, AMA, NAMBA, IMPBA, APBA, XYZ) will get a phone call by the plaintiffs attorney to open a claim. Go back and read what I typed above about Underwriting.

So, to recap, you may or may not have coverage, but you sure as heck will put the future of NAMBA/IMPBA's insurance coverage in jeopardy.

And, for that matter, our hobby.

So, Todd. Please get with your District to write a rule proposal. If they pass it, then it will move to NAMBA membership for a vote. If it then passes, you can run your boat. Until then, please don't run it. Or, turn in your NAMBA membership and don't run it at a NAMBA insured pond. Rely on AMA or Homeowners insurance to cover you.

[Doug Smock]

If something happens out on the pond with a boat that does not fit the rules (a 12S Mono or Todd's turbine) , NAMBA/IMPBA insurance will most likely open a claim, depending on the severity of the accident. It most certainly will open a claim if there is an attorney involved. It may or may not be covered, but a claim will be opened and investigated to see if there is coverage.

After that investigation and claim acceptance or denial, the file will move to the insurance company's Underwriting Dept.

That's when things can go downhill fast for either organization.

Underwriting will give a rectal exam to the claim file and the organization in general, then decide if they want to continue coverage. Guess what they would decide if a 12S Mono or a Turbine caused injury to somebody? Cancellation. Even if a claim was denied.

Please trust me on this. I'm not blowing smoke. I've done this sort of thing. They will consider the risk too great and drop coverage.

And, I doubt the organization will find coverage with another company either. Why? Because the claim will have to be disclosed on any new application for insurance. The new company's Underwriting Dept will give a rectal exam to the application and probably decide, "no thanks". Too much risk.

It could literally be the end of our organization. Our insurance is everything. Without it, we're nothing.

Again you hit the nail squarely on the head. Great post.

[Chilli]

You are right Mike,

we have all used the slang term of "open" when it is really T, limited by hull size and cells for electric and cc/in for the fossil burners.

I hope the insurance company isn't reading this form where we have rules from NAMBA/IMPBA which we are insured for then can rewrite them on the race flier. woh! (Not being Sarcastic)

Cheers, Jay.

I'll admit I don't have a clue how the insurance works for either organization and the AMA which I am a member of also. I welcome anyone who wants to shake things up to voice their opinions here but then follow though via the appropriate channels. There are people here that can guide you.

As for turbines, I personally think the would be very cool to see them at SAW events. My only concern safety wise is the ability to slow down when coming off the throttle. Are most of these boats direct drive? Do they have a clutch or do you have to wait for the motor to spool down?

Rock on!!

[T.S.Davis]

Dave, I follow. I really do.

However, what NAMBA must do (not should) is relay to it's members any limitations or requirements that will jeopardize their coverage.

They advertise the coverage and spell out in the rule book the things that will cause cancellation. Now by your description......we have to also follow all of rules or the resulting lawyer dance will cause a loss of coverage for the entire organization.

Sooooo....the electric sections describe an offshore course. Failure to run that course coupled with an accident and the lawyers will gobble it up. If the whole book applies then your WW race is was risky with it's illegal offshore course. Especially with the far buoy being anywhere near the opposing shore.

Silly yes but where do we draw the line? Where the book tells us the line is (safety rules) or............................? I guess where ever Robert decides the line is. Because we all know that the policy doesn't get into which motors are approved and which aren't. Which cell chemistry is and isn't approved. No way.

As a consumer, if I went out and bought insurance for myself, I would want to know what the limitations were so that I could stay covered. The provider would tell me. Likely in writing. What I did though was buy my insurance from NAMBA. NAMBA told me how to stay protected. In writing just like I would expect............... accept they left out some stuff.

I'll let you decide what the term is for that kind of dishonesty.

[PatrickM]

I'll let you decide what the term is for that kind of dishonesty.

This type of "dishonesty" as you describe it, is called affordable insurance. Would you rather pay $1000 per year for your IMPBA or NAMBA membership/insurance and receive a better defined rule set and policy? Personally, I would rather live with what we are offered (and the massive efforts that have gone into providing what we have) than pay the price for this kind of nit picking.

[T.S.Davis]

The limitations keep the price down. Yep. Get that.

Providing a product that is different than as than your documentation claims is fraud.