Blueprinting UL-1 Motor Wires

[Doby]

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[Doug Smock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8cpkwPAbY0

[Darin Jordan]

I think that the manufacturers order these motors in large batches... maybe 500 at a time or ??? The Chinese manufacturers definitely change things up from batch to batch... One of the side-effects of relying on overseas. The company receiving the parts usually doesn't find out or realize it until the products start arriving, and are in the hands of the consumer. Some of these things... internal to the parts, are really hard to "quality control"... Something probably could be done... at a larger cost.

I have personally approved motor designs that, when they went to production, have had the materials used changed. It's frustrating, and I'm sure that Mike Z. and I share in that frustration... He's more on the hook, however, since he's actually employed by one of the Companies... :)

I'm not sure I agree that we "shouldn't have spec'd" these motors for this class. No one said that about the 700's for the former LSH/LSO class... Same deal there... Quality and performance varied to a large extent, as did reliability.

I think we have enough variety, however, to have options....

The biggest failure I see with the P-Ltd rules is that we allowed the 2030KV motor to be included. It's clearly the motor of choice, and the only competitive option, in several of the classes, and that wasn't the intent of the rules.

I might perhaps get Pro Boat to develop something with a 2000-2100KV motor at some point, but then we have the issue with getting it "allowed" in the rules. Opening up the rules at all seems to be an issue, which, frankly, is a little silly, since part of "spec" racing is to have the ability to adjust the rules to the equipment from time to time.

Luckily for NAMBA, David Newland had the forsight to include in the rules the option for the CD of the event, with the proper documentation, to allow/dissallow furture offerings, in lieu of them being officially listed.

OK, back under my rock...

[properchopper]

I think that the manufacturers order these motors in large batches... maybe 500 at a time or ??? The Chinese manufacturers definitely change things up from batch to batch... One of the side-effects of relying on overseas. The company receiving the parts usually doesn't find out or realize it until the products start arriving, and are in the hands of the consumer. Some of these things... internal to the parts, are really hard to "quality control"... Something probably could be done... at a larger cost.

I have personally approved motor designs that, when they went to production, have had the materials used changed. It's frustrating, and I'm sure that Mike Z. and I share in that frustration... He's more on the hook, however, since he's actually employed by one of the Companies... :)

I'm not sure I agree that we "shouldn't have spec'd" these motors for this class. No one said that about the 700's for the former LSH/LSO class... Same deal there... Quality and performance varied to a large extent, as did reliability.

I think we have enough variety, however, to have options....

The biggest failure I see with the P-Ltd rules is that we allowed the 2030KV motor to be included. It's clearly the motor of choice, and the only competitive option, in several of the classes, and that wasn't the intent of the rules.

I might perhaps get Pro Boat to develop something with a 2000-2100KV motor at some point, but then we have the issue with getting it "allowed" in the rules. Opening up the rules at all seems to be an issue, which, frankly, is a little silly, since part of "spec" racing is to have the ability to adjust the rules to the equipment from time to time.

Luckily for NAMBA, David Newland had the forsight to include in the rules the option for the CD of the event, with the proper documentation, to allow/dissallow furture offerings, in lieu of them being officially listed.

OK, back under my rock...

Build it and , if I'm reading this correctly, it SHOULD be ALLOWABLE (at the CD's discretion of course)

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[properchopper]

Seems like the D9 DMWB approved, at their discretion, the Venom "Atomik" Miss Excite motor for P-Ltd racing at the 2012 Grand Prix Classic.

"Its a fast little vessel right out of the box in fact, it won Pltd hydro bone stack (sic) at 2012 Grand Prix Classic." (from an OSE post that Wilmer made recently)

[ron1950]

hey darin wondered where you had been hideing..have not seen u on for awhile....got to say I have always wondered about the AQ2030 and why proboat never brought out a 2100 kv motor to compete....id sure give it a try...seems most of my boats are spec anymore with 2030 motors...seems the only boat I have left with pro boat motor is the vintage hydro as we use the pb1500 motors on this side of the pond...

[ray schrauwen]

Build it and , if I'm reading this correctly, it SHOULD be ALLOWABLE (at the CD's discretion of course)

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By that rule the TFL Hobby Mono that comes RTR with a 36x60mm can 2075kv 4-pole should be legal. HobbyKing also sells 2 mono's with that same 2075kv 4-pole motor. I would like to get one to try it out. I'm sure they have sold at least 100 units around the world> TFL MONO

[Shooter]

[QUOTE=properchopper;526350]The ProperChopper Labs prototype blue-ice filled in-line KoolStick (pictured during sink test)


I'm lovin the 'Koolstick'!!! I tried a similar contraption as well. Got carried away as usual. Found ice cubes to be the most effective. (4) ice cubes stopped producing cooler water after ~120s @10cc/s w/90deg inlet water. Data below....

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[Shooter]

Thanks Mike. I remember that day. I was supposed to be working on our bathroom! It was under the guise of a 'plumbing project'.

PC - Have you tested the KoolStick?? With a simple airplane electric fuel pump, you can take temps of the water coming out at 10s intervals. Typical race is ....what? around 120s?? Would be interested to know how long it keeps cool. My ice cube cannister was huge and resulted in a 'slosh effect'. You've got that solved with the KoolStick.

[DPeterson]

Chille

I think if they were run closer to the parameters they were designed for there would be no need for all these modifications.

Yep - these were designed for rtr toy boats for the purpose of selling to the masses for a profit. We made a decision to incorporate them into our race boats. Of course I think the confusion still exists whether these classes were supposed to be rtr, beginners classes or actually an extension of the old 700 spec classes.

Darin

No one said that about the 700's for the former LSH/LSO class... Same deal there... Quality and performance varied to a large extent, as did reliability.

The boat racing started with 05 motors and then we evolved with the Astro Flight, Plettenberg and then the drill motors. Not a lot of choices available when the spec classes were developed. When the P-Limited motors were selected we were already running many varieties of good quality proven brushless motors. Lehners, Hackers, Aveox and many more. I guess the thinking/confusion again was that rtr/beginners will grow the sport. This is highly debatable of course as I have seen many beginners start and quit as much as I have seen nitro races converting to electric (not because of the spec motor but because of the speeds they see).

Side note - I am still learning more about the Gas classes (running a Thunderboat), but I am not seeing the gas guys speccing the lowest quality rtr motor they can get their hands on.

Mike Caruso - what do you mean by coating the motor wires?

Back to the subject of cooling - Cooling is absolutely needed where ever you can provide it. For the most part we can cool the can and the end bells but has no effect on the magnets/stator. The heat is generated in the windings. IMO our cooling has a minor impact on the windings. So what to do? - keep timing down, prop down, set boat up to run loose and get rid of all un-necessary prop area.

My horse got back up for a few minutes - going outside now to beat him back down. :)

[ray schrauwen]

Thank you Howard. This is the way the Europeans have been doing it for a LONG time except they use Graupner Carbon props or Etti props. If it wasn't working for them they would have done something different. No need to re invent a wheel that already has a proven track record (exchange "wheel" with the word idea).

If they had better wire to begin with...We would not need silly wire coolers or separation of wires so they don't touch. We are putting 5.5mm or 6mm connectors on 2 or 3mm wire. It's just stupid.
Maybe we need to statr stirring a little bit. The forum has been boring for a while. I like rays suggestion. But hand out props. All the same pitch!

Chille

I think if they were run closer to the parameters they were designed for there would be no need for all these modifications.

Again, prop size controlled and there is no problem. If a problem does occur then you can blame the motor not the setup.

[properchopper]

Interesting how this topic continues to re-emerge. Sufficient evidence to not call it a "Dead Horse" as I see it.

Just for drill, my POV is right in the center of the "Ltd" world. D19 regularly races 2 Ltd classes; P-Ltd Sport Hydro and P-Ltd Cat. Quite active and fun/rewarding. I have four different Ltd Class boats ready to go, and currently hold two NAMBA SAW Ltd Class records.

My short take on whether or whether not later 2030 motors have been degraded can simply summed up by applying the Aflack paradigm, period.

Discussing what the original intent was in forming Ltd classes is just mental gymnastics. Today, it simply is what it is .
IIRC it was the PNW guys putting a SV27 motor on P-OPC boats and racing them. Once I saw the video I was hooked. Then LSO became a "spec" class and on and on. Regionally, the FE30 got things going in Cali.

As far as D19 goes, a wave of interest in racing swelled up. The SOCAL FE boys, unwilling or unable to run higher dollar unlimiteds got on the Ltd wagon. What at first really turned the tide and allowed the five-boat-to-make-a-class rule to be fulfilled was the crossover of some good buddies in the gas/nitro ranks rigging P-Ltd Sport Hydros. That really got the ball rolling BUT now a dark cloud on that horizon has appeared. The motors started to burn up. I mean REGULARLY. Props we used two years ago without issue are now gathering dust. I can read the minds of these crossover people and it ain't good.

What to do? Notwithstanding a current (local) unofficial "gentleman's agreement" to prop down, do we add more cooling? Nah. Doug hit the nail on the head. The 2030's burn the insulation off the windings right after they enter the endbell. More/colder water flow? Nah, Doug is correct in offering that this area isn't helped by watercooling cans.

Homologate different motors ? The TP PowerUSA 3650 canned 7Y(2250KV), 8Y(1970KV), 9Y(1750KV) at $73 retail look good (Ray the TFL motor is a longer can, more than the 5% increased mass allowance).I don't think that's the answer. Racers being racers, some will prop up until the "fuse point" is found and we'll be back to square one.

I don't know what the solution is. I'm propping down and giving it a rest with cheeseburger in hand.

[ray schrauwen]

I don't know what the solution is. I'm propping down and giving it a rest with cheeseburger in hand.

Me too...

[properchopper]

Me too...

Pass the Grey Poupon please.....

[DPeterson]

Like I said in an earlier post, I am not ready to throw in the towel on the limited motors. Unless a well thought out and unanimus solution would be found. I plan to keep racing the 2030 and the 1800 while pushing them to the limit while finding ways to make them work. "Set Up"

One thing is for sure. While we are not all that happy about the quality and the risk of failure with these motors, they have held our heat racing speeds down in the 40-50 mph area. This has allowed us to bump, hit bouy's and fly off without distroying our boats. I still remember the days of running full blown 2P 4S open classes and watching guy's go home from a race with $1,000's of dollars of damage. Myself included. Right now Sean and I can run each other over and still take our boats home. :)

I would be afraid now that a change to a better quality motor would increase our speeds into the danger area again. We would most certainly have to spec a lower KV motor to off set the quality factor. Then what did we gain? Not sure I could by into the prop diameter requirement as of yet. Need to think on that one.