IMPBA’s new P-limited “spec” class rule proposal.

[T.S.Davis]

Don, we all knew Egneg was goofing about the DNF's with nitro. It's an electric forum with electric nut jobs talking about potential electric rules. Offending the fossil guys wasn't exactly a concern in the thread.

As for expanding the ranks of FE I have to agree. Why not go after guys that are already racing the class and have been for years? Why would IMPBA adopt a rule set that doesn't correlate to/with the setups of existing racers? It's like Verizon wireless. Only interested in brand new customers.

[LuckyDuc]

While I can see points on both sides of the debate, one thing I do find somewhat advantageous to a spec class is the ease in which someone can get started and have a reasonable chance of success at winning a race once they get their driving skills polished. I think that when someone shows an interest in something less costly to get their feet wet they also will be drawn to keeping it simple with a few good equipment choices. Time and again it's proven out that it's far easier to give someone a "short list" of items to choose from to keep the confusion down not to mention they will feel less intimidated knowing they will have what others run and it doesn't become a battle of the wallets. If things need to be "tweaked" down the line due to availability of a particular spec'd item that's not that difficult to deal with at all when the time comes. This exact scenario has played out in the last couple years in the gas classes when classic thunderboat basically became a spec class being limited to a stock Zenoah G260. Yeah there were those who went kicking and screaming, threatening to quit, etc. But guess what? That is now one of if not the most successful new gas classes and has had nothing less than explosive growth. Being able to simply spend $250 on a stock G260 vs. the $600-$700 gassers spend for the dizzying choices of full mod motors is the main driving force behind it all. People get real excited over that class especially when you can tell them to pick a hull and buy the same motor eveyone else has to run, it's so simple. I see no real reason why we can't do the same thing here plus if you want to take it a step further keep the P class and just add P-spec. The nitro guys have this with the outboards- B stock tunnel and B tunnel which is wide open, the stock motor choices are limited vs. anything goes beyond displacement in the regular B class. Also, it's not unusual to see the entries for B stock to outnumber the B tunnels plus they can run the stockers in both classes which many of them do. Rather than burn all this energy about why or why not, let's look at the bigger picture- potentially expanding the ranks of FE. Like I said before, we are the smallest of the r/c factions and need to work together.

Toy boats my friends!!

Hi Don. Good to see you. I look forward to discussing this matter with you and others in an alternative setting soon.

I believe that some of the misconception that is taking place in regards to the P-limited classes is that they are beginner classes. That is not the case. Rather, they are the next logical step for people that are new to FE boat racing. The first and most cost efficient step for those wanting to get their feet wet should be a RTR/Production class. It should be local club policy that any new FE boat racer start with this class as it has the shortest list of items to choose from, and is the best solution for keeping cost and confusion to a minimum.

Proboat and Aquacraft have done a great job of providing models to accomplish this. In fact we are going to implement a RTR class here in District 4 very soon to accomplish just that.

Once someone has become familiar with the components and concepts involved with the FE RTR/Production class, the next logical step for them would be the P-limited class. They can run the same boat that they were running in the RTR/Production class if they choose, or they could take some of the components out and put them into a different hull for the more advanced P-limited classes that only limit the motor selection.

[don ferrette]

Don, we all knew Egneg was goofing about the DNF's with nitro. It's an electric forum with electric nut jobs talking about potential electric rules. Offending the fossil guys wasn't exactly a concern in the thread.

But perhaps it should be, I was reading OSE as a fossil fuel guy before I ever purchased my first battery. While I'm hoping it was only meant in jest you can't deny all it takes is one person starting something like "you won't believe what the FE guys are saying". I watched this very thing happen with the gassers ..... that rift is virtually unrepairable now. Sure would like to avoid that happening again if at all possible.

As for expanding the ranks of FE I have to agree. Why not go after guys that are already racing the class and have been for years? Why would IMPBA adopt a rule set that doesn't correlate to/with the setups of existing racers? It's like Verizon wireless. Only interested in brand new customers.

So then why not consider a P and a P-Spec class like the the B and B stock the nitro o/b tunnel guys have if there is so much concern about "restrictions"?

Just want good things for us all.............

[don ferrette]

........Once someone has become familiar with the components and concepts involved with the FE RTR/Production class, the next logical step for them would be the P-limited class. They can run the same boat that they were running in the RTR/Production class if they choose, or they could take some of the components out and put them into a different hull for the more advanced P-limited classes that only limit the motor selection.

BINGO!! That is kinda where I was going with the idea of both a P and P-Spec class, you just worded it better.

I bet there are plenty of recreational non racers out there with FE/Production boats that might make the jump to organized racing if it's not quite so intimidating.

[Darin Jordan]

Once someone has become familiar with the components and concepts involved with the FE RTR/Production class, the next logical step for them would be the P-limited class. They can run the same boat that they were running in the RTR/Production class if they choose, or they could take some of the components out and put them into a different hull for the more advanced P-limited classes that only limit the motor selection.

That was EXACTLY the idea when we started all this... People had been racing their SV27s in "Spec SV27", and some of use decided to try the power systems in OPC Tunnel... From there, it got here.

The "simplest" way to conduct the P-Limited class, is to NOT put a bunch of additional rules on it. Leaving ESCs open is easier on the racer, easier on the tech inspectors, and easier on the rule writers. Not much to think about, really. Pick a motor and go race. Simple.

I'm not saying that's the way I'd do it... I'm on the fence, and would race the class either way (already do! ), I'm just saying that, if you want to keep it simple and easy to get involved in, you leave things simple. "Forcing" someone to purchase a "stock" ESC when they already have a box full of Hydras or ??? is not really helping the participation. AND, just like with the initial influx of Lipos... forcing people to have to run their equipment that close to the breaking point isn't a good seller either.

I also think there is a danger in putting the fate of a class into the ability to supply parts based on only a small handful, or, in this case... TWO, manufacturers.

These are all just realities... NOT arguing for a limit on ESCs, or against it. Just putting out a lot of things to consider, and, frankly, what has ALREADY been considered, when it comes to the NAMBA P-Limited rules that were discussed over the past couple of years.

I, personally, can go either way... but then, I have a fairly available supply of ProBoat ESCs, so I can afford to push them to their limit (I'm actually expected to, in most cases... part of the deal to find the breaking point... )

Also, keep in mind that a vast MAJORITY of people out there are NOT going to already have a RTR package that they would then convert into a P-Limited boat (i.e.: wouldn't rip apart the power system to put in another hull) They are starting from scratch in most cases. At that point, it's going to be a sell to try to convince them to spend the $$$ for a 60A Factory AQ ESC, when, in most cases for less money, they can go out and buy a 120A ESC that has more adjustment and features.

Just sayin'...

[Meniscus]

..."Forcing" someone to purchase a "stock" ESC when they already have a box full of Hydras or ??? is not really helping the participation. ...

Since Darin brought it up. Perhaps these new boaters may not have a spec ESC or have cooked one as often some of these folks do who are new to the hobby. I'll say that it's much easier for me to pull another ESC out of the box to help ensure they can race. Case and point, last year I showed up with many components to offer freely for folks that needed them to race. While I couldn't participate at that time, I was still able to support the new racers who were making best efforts to participate.

For those with far more experience than me, perhaps you could quantify the speed differential for spec vs. other options? How much are we talking about here? If we are already asked to tune down our boats, what's the issue?

So if someone has a non-spec ESC, then they'll have to go to a smaller prop to maintain the competitive nature of this class. Is that unreasonable?

Not trying to stir the pot, but I am interested in what the actual difference is in terms of speed.

[Diegoboy]

Since Darin brought it up. Perhaps these new boaters may not have a spec ESC or have cooked one as often some of these folks do who are new to the hobby. I'll say that it's much easier for me to pull another ESC out of the box to help ensure they can race. Case and point, last year I showed up with many components to offer freely for folks that needed them to race. While I couldn't participate at that time, I was still able to support the new racers who were making best efforts to participate.

For those with far more experience than me, perhaps you could quantify the speed differential for spec vs. other options? How much are we talking about here? If we are already asked to tune down our boats, what's the issue?

So if someone has a non-spec ESC, then they'll have to go to a smaller prop to maintain the competitive nature of this class. Is that unreasonable?

Not trying to stir the pot, but I am interested in what the actual difference is in terms of speed.

Very good piont!

[carlcisneros]

Hey Don;

Aren't you supposed to be working?

Tracy and I are meeting with Mike Reach out at the plant tomorrow morning.

Carl

[Meniscus]

On another note, not picking sides or defending comments made by any parties, but for the record: I've only heard positive things from Chuck regarding IC folks at Old Dominion in every instance. After all, they share the same hobby.

While I have had various experiences speaking with OD folks, I chalk it up to the fact that there are all different personalities and one example is not indicative of the group as a whole, regardless of the isolated case.

[Doby]

While I'm a firm believer that the IC and FE guys can play well together....there are several posts that come off as being almost fearful that is the IC guys are not appeased, then there will be no place to run FE boats......interesting....why? Or is it just to be able to run mixed classes?

Is an IMPBA sanctioned pond only sanctioned for one or the other(IC or FE)?

Nothing stopping people from sourcing alternate sites, forming their own club, getting insurance, contacting the landowners etc........ a few hunderd bucks later you have a place where you can set your own rules.....thats what a few of us did last year.

[Doug Smock]

So then why not consider a P and a P-Spec class like the the B and B stock the nitro o/b tunnel guys have if there is so much concern about "restrictions"?

Just want good things for us all.............

Me too Don.
The P class is wide open. Some just have to push and push these limited setups ( you don't have to look far to see it) and that is what sparked the concern, and why some folks want restrictions on them.
I'm sorry but "The motor is the fuse" just doesn't fly with some of us.
It's the same old thing Don, look at Crackerbox, Sport Hydro, and I bet you can name some more. Nature of the beast I guess.
BTW Did you see a bunch of slow limited boats last year?

I'll be looking to see what happens when the smoke clears LOL
Later fellas!!!

[Flying Scotsman]

I am not a racer, but I can understand concerns in limited series, but saying that the pros will cheat and that is the nature of racing. You may not win with a tricked out motor or an ESC with exrta caps, large gauge wire, slightly tweaked prop and a hot battery, the best driver will win.

Douggie

[Meniscus]

...Nothing stopping people from sourcing alternate sites, forming their own club, getting insurance, contacting the landowners etc........ a few hunderd bucks later you have a place where you can set your own rules.....thats what a few of us did last year.

Doby, if this is response to my post regarding alternate site, it is not intended to setup a different club. There are not enough of us to do that. My efforts on that front is to attempt to source additional sites as an option for Old Dominion. There have been issues in recent years and the latest word I've heard is that they should have the same pond this year, but nothing signed yet. At the same time, it seems like this pond will not be available next year. So in the interest of supporting local RC boating both IC and FE and considering my personal relationship with a few landowners with ponds that would accommodate, I offered to do some legwork to at the very least have an additional option available should the need arise.

[LuckyDuc]

I’ve had some time to step back and reflect on things a bit. I think that we need to discuss our goals as they relate to IMPBA and FE. Judging from phone conversations with those involved and what I have read here, the main goals that we are striving to accomplish are…

1) Increase FE participation at local club and district race events, with the hopes of it leading to a well attended national event.

2) Make it easy for existing IC boat racers to get their feet wet with FE while keeping cost and learning curve to a minimum.

3) Increase membership in IMPBA by bringing in new FE boaters that are not currently involved with IMPBA clubs.

4) To have fun.

I believe that we need to develop a “FE Strategy” on how to accomplish our goals. Once we have an agreed upon strategy in place to accomplish said goals, we then need to draft rules to support that strategy.

I like the idea of a RTR/production class for my district, and P-Spec is a very good descriptive term for the class. It would be a Hoot to race! Coming up with rules for a class like this would be reasonably straight forward, and it works towards our goals at the same time.

We had planned to run 2 P-limited classes this season in District 4 (P-limited Sport Hydro and P-limited Hydro), but I would be willing to drop one of those classes and replace it with a RTR/P-Spec class to further participation locally. Maybe we alternate the second class between P-limited Sport Hydro and P-limited hydro every other race. I have a very good feeling that more IC racers would get involved if that was the case. I know a few of them have a Miss Elams and UL-1s in their closets.

[Flying Scotsman]

Well said, now let us get back to building boats and having fun. I just wish we had a race club in Vancouver. Seattle is too far away, but has awesome members, who know their sh!t

Douggie