P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[D. Newland]

TP TP-3630-10D 10D 1950
TP TP-3630-6Y 6Y 1750
TP TP-3630-7Y 7Y 1500

Pros and Cons??

With proper testing this next season, if we do this with 2 more manufacturers, we're good well into the next decade with P-Ltd. I'm still falling on the side of actually listing motors. And if P-Ltd is that important to FE, it deserves our continued time and discussion. Just like we have been doing. I know this discussion had it's downs and ups, but the last P-Ltd proposal to add the Dynamite motors was as smooth as can be. That may be apples and oranges, but it does show that P-Ltd can have change discussions and proposals go smoothly.

[Darin Jordan]

I'm still falling on the side of actually listing motors.

At this point, I'm would concede that point and just enhance the existing list.

Are you saying you'd want two more manufacturer options? So an additional 6 motors, 9 more total, assuming all three KVs?

I'll work on putting that list together. Typhoon and Leopard come to mind. Maybe TFL SSS?

[rayzerdesigns]

Thanks, Steven, I'll add that. I found a few others as well, and Brian has a couple to add also.

People, I would like to challenge you to something: Take the specifications I've listed, and go out and TRY to find motors that fit the spec. Post them here and I'll add them to the list.


You are going to find out that the limits we're talking about make that search PRETTY darned narrow already. The list of suitable motors turns out to be pretty small, unless you go SMALLER on one or more of the dimensions, in which case you are drastically lowering the power of the motor (watts).

Actually doing this exercise reinforces my personal opinion that we do NOT need to have NAMBA maintain a list of motors, and that defining these specs is the way to go. Most, if not all of these "fears" are just not really going to come to fruition, and wouldn't matter much in regards to competitiveness, if they did.

I like the leopard 36x50 motors..they also have a 2090 I think..and a 1600kv..

[T.S.Davis]

If we do something like a TP or a Leopard, let's stick to kV that are closer to or below what we already know the 2030 delivers. Let's stay 1950 ish and lower.

I know we're all over the place on this but I think that's because there are too many factors. Trying to anticipate and include the RTR markets potential is clearly impossible. My dream of continuing to enjoy all the RTR's having a drop in home seems to be just that.......a dream.

So what to do ?............I am stuck on bandaid cuz bandaid's stuck on me!

[rayzerdesigns]

OK, Gang... Thanks to input from several people, as well as a bunch of searching myself, I've an updated list of motors that fall within the suggested specifications.

Remember, once again, that I am NOT advocating that NAMBA actually maintain such a list in the rulebook. I'm simply putting a list of motors together that all of you might find out there that meet what would be the published specs.

Look this list over and I want you to think VERY clearly and analytically about how all these motors compare. If you see a motor(s) on the list that concern you, I want you to be able to answer the following question:

WHAT about this motor makes you worry that it'll "ruin the class", or otherwise be more competitive than the others. SPECIFICALLY, not based on speculation, but rather on real data, WHY is this motor concerning you?

Also, looking at the list myself, I can't imagine WHY some might want to get that TP-3630-10D included... Is it not OBVIOUS WHY the TP motor runs cooler than the AQ2030?? Nothing to see here...

Anyhow, here is the list thus far. Think it over.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]136112[/ATTACH]

im digging the leopards..i have run them..they are great motors..they can get hot and not short out the wires..and price wise on ose..with a water jacket..these might be my recommendation..but I still like the current legal motors

[rayzerdesigns]

People talking about just "transitioning" to full-P maybe don't understand exactly what full-P is??

ANY Motor(s) (2 motors in Cats, etc...)
4S 2P batteries (TWICE the number of cells... TWO 4S packs as opposed to 1)
Heavier duty drivelines (.187 cable, Heavier hardware, etc.)
Heavier Duty boats (A light-weight RTR in full P will destroy itself in the first flip.


The point was to keep this reasonably priced to do. Now you guys want to just throw the doors back open?

I'm not seeing the need, on a NATIONAL level, to even attach this to RTRs any-longer.

That made sense when the RTRs fit the profile, but they don't, or won't, as time goes on.

Also... WHO really runs RTR boats, or even just the hulls, at a National event? A few Revolts raced by the locals putting on the event, maybe a BJ29 or MG... Even in our club, which is really one of the center-points for all-things P-LTD, Revolts are giving way to Pursuits, and MG29's are giving way to Sprint Cats...

I think we need to take a very honest look at the RTR industry, and just HOW much it's actually feeding, or NOT feeding, our racing classes.

I, personally, believe it's a VERY small part of the equation. One that should be handled on the CLUB level.

I love the fact limited classes are cheaper..0nly 2 2s packs..smaller speedos..i will race these classes as long as available..do I like the faster classes..yes..but expense goes way up

[rayzerdesigns]

With proper testing this next season, if we do this with 2 more manufacturers, we're good well into the next decade with P-Ltd. I'm still falling on the side of actually listing motors. And if P-Ltd is that important to FE, it deserves our continued time and discussion. Just like we have been doing. I know this discussion had it's downs and ups, but the last P-Ltd proposal to add the Dynamite motors was as smooth as can be. That may be apples and oranges, but it does show that P-Ltd can have change discussions and proposals go smoothly.

so add the leopards..much cheaper in cost..and very durable..there are a few that would fit in the paramaters

[dethow]

I'd think the TPs and Leopards are the way to go. Good options and easily available from several suppliers.
So I'd propose:

TP3630 7Y 1500kv
TP3630 6Y 1750kv
TP3630 10D 1950kv

LBP3660 3.5Y 1480kv
LBP3660 3Y 1720kv
LBP3660 5D 1900kv

[Darin Jordan]

I'd think the TPs and Leopards are the way to go. Good options and easily available from several suppliers.
So I'd propose:

TP3630 7Y 1500kv
TP3630 6Y 1750kv
TP3630 10D 1950kv

LBP3660 3.5Y 1480kv
LBP3660 3Y 1720kv
LBP3660 5D 1900kv

I was just about to post those...

OK... So... per David N. who suggested three manufacturers, how about one more set... a LITTLE bit more money, but still "only" $115.00. Really good quality and readily available:

LBP3660 3.5Y 1480kv
LBP3660 3Y 1720kv
LBP3660 5D 1900kv

TP3630 7Y 1500kv
TP3630 6Y 1750kv
TP3630 10D 1950kv

Typhoon 650-58-1480
Typhoon 650-58-1760
Typhoon 650-58-1970

That's 9 motors, all in the same KV ranges, all 4-Pole, all of them either 36x58 or 36x60 (within the range of the existing motors), all decent quality, all of them between 240-260g, all having long runs of being available, giving users lots of options and supporting lots of hull types.

Approximate quality is similar.

Cost range from $60.00 to $115.00.

Would provide a definitive list of motors, satisfying THAT segment of the group that needs a list.

Relative performance to those currently on the list may be a tad better, but I think we can all agree that the current list is no going to be sustained anyhow?

Given the opportunity, with an official implementation date of January 1, 2017 to give people time to prepare, I'd vote on this tomorrow. Local clubs could start running the rules immediately and if any issues are discovered (NOT likely, in my opinion), they would have time to address them.

What do you think? Is THIS the direction we in NAMBA want to go??

[Darin Jordan]

I actually have the TFL SSS Motor catalog on my work computer, so I'll look at it tomorrow, but I was able to find these two online that would also fit:

TFL-SSS 3660/1600KV / 6,5D
TFL-SSS 3660/2000KV /5,5D

They may have more options too. Not sure how they compare. The two 2000KV motors I have in my Twin Cheetah seem to be decent quality.

[longballlumber]

Just food for thought….

Speaking strictly from a racer that exclusively runs P-Limited boats or RTR’s (that covers a decent portion of our club); how many of the motors listed are compatible with the Aquacraft speed and/or ProBoat speedcontrols? I know the Aquacraft has a fixed timing of 10*. I am not sure if the ProBoat units are programmable or not. My basic understanding is the “D” wind motors would need a different controller with adjustable timing?

Just want to make sure we are coving all of our bases.

Another thought, I haven’t heard any ideas on limiting battery mAh? While capacity is difficult to tech; what about size and weight? It’s my understanding this restriction is being used successfully over the pond; right?

[Darin Jordan]

Another thought, I haven’t heard any ideas on limiting battery mAh? While capacity is difficult to tech; what about size and weight? It’s my understanding this restriction is being used successfully over the pond; right?

Mike, to clarify, are you asking strictly in regards to P-LTD, or for batteries in general?

I don't know of anyone who is going overboard with batteries. Most run enough to have capacity without adding extra weight. Sort of self-limiting in my opinion.

I'm not against specifying a weight like they do in Europe, but... remember... whenever add another line to the rules, it's one more thing that has to be tech'd.

I guess we'd have to understand what limiting battery weight would buy us...

[Darin Jordan]

Yes, I have too much time on my hands...

Here is what a potential list of "approved" P-LTD Motors might look like if we combined TP, Leopard, TFL-SSS, and Typhoon together with our existing list.

POTENTIAL_P_LTD_MOTORS.jpg

[longballlumber]

Mike, to clarify, are you asking strictly in regards to P-LTD, or for batteries in general?

Discussion is P-Limited; that is what I am referencing. I was referencing limiting capacity more than anything. This would need to be used in conjunction with other restrictions to promote cost/balanced performance. I was only throwing it against the wall to see the reaction.

[Darin Jordan]

Discussion is P-Limited; that is what I am referencing. I was referencing limiting capacity more than anything. This would need to be used in conjunction with other restrictions to promote cost/balanced performance. I was only throwing it against the wall to see the reaction.

One thing we've found with the recently implemented voltage limits... If you take a 5000mah pack, and charge it to 4.2v/cell, it'll be 5000mah... If you charge it to 4.23v/cell, it'll be 5100mah...

I think the Euros have it right... Weight is a better way to go (probably should have done that in the first place, hindsight 20/20 and all)...

The idea has merit and probably should be considered.