P-Limited Motors - Im going to jump on the hot seat.

[RaceMechaniX]

Darin,
I have some exact weights for you. The 1930 motors are 262g, the 1940 which we will likely exclude are 316g.

TG

[jaike5]

Terry, the stock esc's just help keep the playing field level. Look how even the SV27 class is in your club, was fun to watch even more fun to race in, think I'm going to get me one of those . The newbies can race with experienced guys and learn a lot and have a good chance of winning. Food for thought.... Cracker Box Q size P power. remember Pete running open mono in a cracker box w 3060 10s 2p whatah scream! ..... sorry for the off topic !

Darin, with evolving technologies we are going to have to continue rewriting the rules .... can't wait for the new generation batteries to shake things up. Open dialog with out bashing and name calling is what is needed to make it as seem less and wallet friendly as possible.

Steve, Thanks man, for keeping on top of it all for us to be able to play boats.

Cheers, Jay. race on

[Darin Jordan]

arin, with evolving technologies we are going to have to continue rewriting the rules .... can't wait for the new generation batteries to shake things up.

Perhaps, but we aren't focusing on batteries right now. That's another subject for another time.

With motors, if this is done correctly, there would NOT be a reason to address it again. Period.

[Darin Jordan]

Darin,
I have some exact weights for you. The 1930 motors are 262g, the 1940 which we will likely exclude are 316g.

TG

Tyler, on the 1930's, is that actual weight?

I ask because the ones currently on my list (1930 CarLine) are LISTED as 230g....

[dethow]

FYI the Revolt I used to win the P-Limited Offshore at the Cup this year was bone stock (1800 kv) except for a dinged up m445.
FYI, The Motley Crew I used to win the P-Limited Cat at the Cup this year was bone stock (1800 kv) except for a 40 dollar HK ESC and a prop.

No need to spend a lot of money.....just time on the water.

You can be competitive right out of the box...but you need to tune your boats.

I do understand that is how it currently works and know that stock boats are competitive. I guess I just got the impression that part of the reason to expand the list of limited motors was to get some more dependable choices in the mix. More dependable to me... means stronger. And I didn't know if this would have an adverse effect on the use of existing limited motors.

But, as I previously said... I'm going to bow out of this and trust in you guys that know far more then I about this subject and also listen to the fact that this process will involve testing. So those making the decisions will see if there are advantages to other motors and in turn adversely affecting the existing limited motors.

Last thing for me on the subject is just that I still think that providing a spec boat class would be the best way to get more new people involved. And I don't think this would single out the newbie and not have them included. There would be 3 classes for them to run and I think many experienced racers would run in them as well. Just as many run the MMEU SV27 class.

But again... I should just bow out because I understand you guys have more experience in these matters and know best.

[Doby]

Not more dependable choices...just dependable supplies

[D. Newland]

...
Don't get me wrong here... I'd love to get a better motor in my Pursuit and run faster. But that desire leans more towards wishing MMEU ran more open classes and less limited classes. I have also seen new people come around and I think it gets over whelming for them to think they could actually get involved in this hobby. That's why I think a different direction altogether is warranted.

Provide a few spec boat classes for beginners to run their off the shelf boats and abolish the limited motors altogether...

D-Thanks for your involvement in this thread! We need your perspective and you bring up some good points. We kind of created this monster called P-Ltd and, maybe to a fault, tried to get it to encompass too much. But, the current result is that more than 50% of the boats on the water at any given sanctioned race is P-Ltd powered. Or more. That's a good thing.

I still don't know where I stand regarding experienced racers getting out of P-Ltd classes, or not. It obviously has most of the competition and experienced involvement has a ton of upside, but we then tend to possibly influence it incorrectly (and possibly subconsciously). If I were staying in the hobby, I would be out of P-Ltd racing, at the same time try to preserve the magic for others. New/upcoming racers, really. Budget oriented. Equal performance. Tuning focused.

As far as offering an RTR within a national rule set, that just won't happen within either organization IMO. It's more appropriate for clubs to set up RTR classes because they can act faster to changes than NAMBA/IMPBA, as well as adjust to what best fits their group. The RTR market changes too fast for a national rule set to keep up, and the discussions that would go on about how/when to change RTR rules once a boat becomes obsolete or a better RTR comes from another manufacturer would be frequent...and I'm afraid epic.


Darin and others. Thank you! Great work on this so far. We're getting somewhere. I will say that I like the "one and done" attitude with the rule direction, but I'll be honest...I like even more the control, focus and simplicity of actually listing motors in the rule rather than listing a spec. Heck, list 6 more motors (once tested).

[dethow]

As far as offering an RTR within a national rule set, that just won't happen within either organization IMO. It's more appropriate for clubs to set up RTR classes because they can act faster to changes than NAMBA/IMPBA, as well as adjust to what best fits their group. The RTR market changes too fast for a national rule set to keep up, and the discussions that would go on about how/when to change RTR rules once a boat becomes obsolete or a better RTR comes from another manufacturer would be frequent...and I'm afraid epic.

Understood and makes perfect sense. Thanks

[Steven Vaccaro]

Will you be getting the motor with a 5MM shaft?

Yes in the next batch.

[Steven Vaccaro]

Wow, I never paid much attention to the comparison, but the tp motor is over an ounce heavier. It better outperform a Aquacraft motor!!!

[GixerGuy1978]

I'm liking the way this thread has become constructive now! And everyone is starting to have constructive criticism, hence the purpose! We almost need to condense all the constructive info (concerns/ideas/etc) into one entry so that new people just joining in don't have to read 6 pages of some of the earlier crap that happened, to get the required latest info to the forefront.
That being said, Dethow.... You make some concerning points that many of us have on this subject. All good! As you, myself included and others will see and come to learn and discover from the ideas presented by the people involved in its fruition. I, for one, have all the trust in these guru's to make this class fair for everyone, especially newbies. This topic obviously will help the hobby in all ways. I really look forward to coming to a final fair conclusion all around that makes sense to everyone.

[Darin Jordan]

OK, Gang... Thanks to input from several people, as well as a bunch of searching myself, I've an updated list of motors that fall within the suggested specifications.

Remember, once again, that I am NOT advocating that NAMBA actually maintain such a list in the rulebook. I'm simply putting a list of motors together that all of you might find out there that meet what would be the published specs.

Look this list over and I want you to think VERY clearly and analytically about how all these motors compare. If you see a motor(s) on the list that concern you, I want you to be able to answer the following question:

WHAT about this motor makes you worry that it'll "ruin the class", or otherwise be more competitive than the others. SPECIFICALLY, not based on speculation, but rather on real data, WHY is this motor concerning you?

Also, looking at the list myself, I can't imagine WHY some might want to get that TP-3630-10D included... Is it not OBVIOUS WHY the TP motor runs cooler than the AQ2030?? Nothing to see here...

Anyhow, here is the list thus far. Think it over.


Motor_Comparison_CHART.jpg

[dethow]

So to be clear... you guys are looking at placing spec limits to motors instead of defining a specific list of legal motors?
And anything that fits within these limits would be legal?

Based on this list the maximums are as follows:
Max Diameter: 36.3mm
Max Length: 60.0mm
Max Weight: 252g
Max KV: 2050

[Darin Jordan]

Something to think about regarding our current motor supply...

Pro Boat has literally LAID down the GAUNTLET regarding RTR motors and boat performance. IM31, Voracity, and things yet to be revealed... All are running 40mm+ motors... The days of the Pro Boat 36-series motors coming in 4S+ RTRs are done.

Assuming that Aquacraft is planning on replacing Mike Z and Russ Williamson and continuing their AQ development, HOW do you think they might respond to the current market, especially to their closest rival, whose headquarters is only a few blocks away?? Do they want to compete? Can they do that with an AQ2030 or AQ1800??

Pro Boat's 40mm motor program is a reality. People have them in their hands. The boats are literally coming out of the boxes an approaching, and exceeding, 50+mph. Are people still going to want that 40mph Revolt?

You'll see why I'm not nearly as concerned about matching up perfectly with the existing supply of motors. We'll have them around for awhile, but the availability and supply are GOING to wain eventually. I'd rather match our specs to be close to those, but leave enough room to be INCLUSIVE of the range of motors that are ACTUALLY available on a large scale.

Just food for thought.

[Darin Jordan]

So to be clear... you guys are looking at placing spec limits to motors instead of defining a specific list of legal motors?
And anything that fits within these limits would be legal?

Based on this list the maximums are as follows:
Max Diameter: 36.5mm
Max Length: 61.0mm
Max Weight: 260g
Max KV: 2050

I don't know if I'd say "you guys" are looking to do this... Maybe... but, to be clear, it's ME that has been advocating this direction in this conversation. I'm the one who thinks it's the way to move forward down the road. I'm not sure what others think, other than the thoughts in this thread.

I guess that's why we are here to read...

And, I agree with the sentiments above... PLEASE don't NOT participate because you think you are a "newbie" or don't know enough... some of us DO have more experience, but this conversation should address the thoughts of all. Otherwise, how can we get 'new blood' into the hobby! More racers = MORE FUN!