NAMBA P-Ltd Motor discussion

[Doug Smock]

Doug,
I was referring to the rules for P on up in NAMBA and Q on up in IMPBA not limiting to one motor. Except in certain hull categories like scale and sport hydro. A NAMBA legal P can run twins, complying to voltage only. Explains the P Cat record 30 mph faster in NAMBA. The 10000ma limit keeps them out of heat racing not records. Your new T mono should have twins! (really bad crash potential)
Mic

Got ya.

[ray schrauwen]

After this I had a conversation with someone and we talked about the motor cooling on the HRC jackets. The elbow fittings are hands down the bottleneck for restricting flow on the water cooling system in my boat. I made some changes to them that I thought would help with flow and my NEW 2030 runs about 15-20 degrees cooler than it used to with the 45x68 (I ran the new motor on the same course with the same prop in very similar water and ambient temperature conditions before and after the elbow modifications).

I agree with the fittings but, not so much on a 2030 motor. Bigger hotter motors, yes a significant decrease but, I haven't seen a big diff with spec boats.

[D. Newland]

...Dave, I ran a 447 all season on my pond. Went to Phoenix thinking don't change a thing. Poof. You said 45x55 max. Tried that and it blew the deck off the boat. Had to drop to a 42x55. I thought like Doug. Fresh motors. The difference between there and here was the water and the motor.

Keep in mind that's the boat that placed in 2 classes at the nats. It's not the build. But not with one of the only two spec motors available today.

Do you remember the look on my face when you said it was a 447?

yes-the Nat's, we had some great racing in P-ltd mono and O/S. The point I'm trying to make is where your head is at with regards to fault. Az water. Motors lack of quality. You're probably right on some level, but there's a common denominator in there somewhere, too. Your P-Ltd mono ran like a raped ape at the Nat's. Hands down the fastest boat in that class, right?

I look at those two facts and don't have any sympathy about your motor losses. Don't feel bad, you're in good company (with Schweers). edit-that was more of a joke than a serious comment. But, I do question your argument/position.

[T.S.Davis]

Yes it was because I didn't put a 2030 back in it. Only Ty's boats have 2030 now. He's running old stock though.

My point was that the setup I ran for a season (M447) was suddenly not viable. Mike keeps saying data data data but two identical setups with two motors that are supposed to be the same and one turns 5mm less prop. How can this be?

That's like buying Z rated tires. Accept one of them doesn't measure up to the others. You race based on testing and the tire fails because it's not the same.

I'm not running crazy prop sizes. The last two 2030 I lost were running 45x55. Not unreasonable on zero drag wire drives and free running boats.

[jfrancisco892]

Jimmy, once you burn one or multiple motors on what you feel is your "normal" prop and you don't think you are pushing you will be less than pleased.

That is true. However a motor does not typically go unless it is a relatively hot setup (i.e. coming in after a run at roughly 120+ degrees fahrenheit). Whenever I put a new motor in a boat, if I can I will typically run 2-3 laps with it and do a temperature check to make sure it is in a range I am comfortable with. I think with the setups most of us run you have to expect to burn up motors. If and when that does happen you need to make a change to make sure it does not happen again. From what I have heard, it sounds like some of you are burning up motors, throwing a new one in and expecting different results. That does not make sense to me. If a motor burns up something is wrong. Like I said earlier everyone is using the same motor, so adapt to it and make changes. I just want to say I am not mad at anyone and just want to preserve this class as it is where I have the most fun in boat racing.

Jimmy

[Doug Smock]

BUT, it also seems to run consistently 20 deg hotter (about 130) and there is a distinct new motor smell after each run.

..

Ok reed dis slo is a lot ta take in.

Usen back wouds hillbillys down eer in na SE call dat a clue. Keep it up in it mighten burn ta dang boat down pert near da waterline.
Take ya a par a dikes or sumin and wack just a wee bit off a da tips a dat prop and toss er back out dare. I'm bettin you see a differsce.
Shoot, I seen some boyz take sum off ta tips jus rubin em on a rock an dey boats wer fastern an ey waz ,an ey wernt near az hot. Sumpin bout freezing up em rpm.

Tired motors, we ain nevr hured of sutch a thang. Ide think iffn ey wuz tared ya mussa werked em tu hard. But dats gust me.

Lova ya bro!! Have your buddy's flush the toilets will ya?? Our pond is low.

PS Keep ya an I out fer a bild thred. Imma bild a nu saw boat outa sum sticks and Murtices gurdal!!

[Doby]

Ok reed dis slo is a lot ta take in.

Usen back wouds hillbillys down eer in na SE call dat a clue. Keep it up in it mighten burn ta dang boat down pert near da waterline.
Take ya a par a dikes or sumin and wack just a wee bit off a da tips a dat prop and toss er back out dare. I'm bettin you see a differsce.
Shoot, I seen some boyz take sum off ta tips jus rubin em on a rock an dey boats wer fastern an ey waz ,an ey wernt near az hot. Sumpin bout freezing up em rpm.

Tired motors, we ain nevr hured of sutch a thang. Ide think iffn ey wuz tared ya mussa werked em tu hard. But dats gust me.

Lova ya bro!! Have your buddy's flush the toilets will ya?? Our pond is low.

PS Keep ya an I out fer a bild thred. Imma bild a nu saw boat outa sum sticks and Murtices gurdal!!

You iz such a tool....

So as this has turned into a he said/she said thread about Aq 2030 motors, I do believe that the thread title stated " P Limited Motor Discussion"...so lets agree to disagree on the AQ motors and move on to something more worthwhile...I hate to say it , but Petersons thread actually has more validity...lets "discuss" other potential
p limited motor options to supplement the only 2 remaining AQ options.


And Doug S...I do fully expect my knew moter to roll ovar and die if I keeps running it as is...but it will be my's fault caus I knowes better but still does it....

Hang on a minute...water coming your way...FLUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Luck as a Constant]

NAMBA P-Ltd Motor discussion

Ok reed dis slo is a lot ta take in.

Usen back wouds hillbillys down eer in na SE call dat a clue. Keep it up in it mighten burn ta dang boat down pert near da waterline.
Take ya a par a dikes or sumin and wack just a wee bit off a da tips a dat prop and toss er back out dare. I'm bettin you see a differsce.
Shoot, I seen some boyz take sum off ta tips jus rubin em on a rock an dey boats wer fastern an ey waz ,an ey wernt near az hot. Sumpin bout freezing up em rpm.

Tired motors, we ain nevr hured of sutch a thang. Ide think iffn ey wuz tared ya mussa werked em tu hard. But dats gust me.

Lova ya bro!! Have your buddy's flush the toilets will ya?? Our pond is low.

PS Keep ya an I out fer a bild thred. Imma bild a nu saw boat outa sum sticks and Murtices gurdal!!

Omg hahaha!
This is the best post I've ever seen :yesway:

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LuckyDuc]

Oh boy. Now the thread is literally going south.

A lot of this frustration stems from lack of motor choices in the P-Ltd class. We have all grown accustom to using one manufacturer/motor. Now that there are some noticeable variations in that motor’s performance and quality from previous batches, many are looking for alternatives. Who can blame them? Nobody wants to de-tune their boats from previously successful setups. I’m as lazy about changing proven setups as the next guy. Especially, when it seems that one variable is causing the need for said change.
I do like the fact that this was written into NAMBA’s P-ltd rule set…

There MAY be other options...
NAMBA Rulebook section 28.D.1.d.iii:

iii) In addition, the CD has the discretion to allow the following:

(a) An aftermarket motor that is a re-labeled and exact copy of any
approved motor.
(b) Any generational change of an approved motor, or a motor that
is used in a Ready To Run (RTR) offering from a manufacturer
that produces over 100 units of said offering, as long as there is
no more than a 5% increase in any of the following
manufacturers specifications as compared to any single
approved motor: Kv, maximum constant amperage rating,
mass, and MSRP.
(c) The race flyer shall list additional allowed motors for the event

The above keeps with the tradition of homologation that is present in most motor sports.

I’m confident that some RTR manufacturer will step up to the plate to answer the demand. It may take a year or two though. And why can’t we have the same quality of RTR manufacturers in the boating world that we do in the car world? Team Associated comes to mind in the R/C car racing world.

What do we do in the mean time? Were the “original” LSH and LSO classes really built around one motor? I have to admit, there is some appeal to using one reasonably high quality motor for the “spec-Limited” class… Of course until that manufacturer has a supplier/quality issue as well.

I haven't given up on the P-Ltd classes, but we may see a resurgence of "open" P classes in the near future.

[Doug Smock]

You iz such a tool....

So as this has turned into a he said/she said thread about Aq 2030 motors, I do believe that the thread title stated " P Limited Motor Discussion"...so lets agree to disagree on the AQ motors and move on to something more worthwhile...I hate to say it , but Petersons thread actually has more validity...lets "discuss" other potential
p limited motor options to supplement the only 2 remaining AQ options.


And Doug S...I do fully expect my knew moter to roll ovar and die if I keeps running it as is...but it will be my's fault caus I knowes better but still does it....

Hang on a minute...water coming your way...FLUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!

We don't disagree my friend, just having fun with you as you'd expect.
I don't have any experience with the newer motors. Mine are ancient.
I'm glad you guys are looking for better options. We will follow when we need to.
Thanks fellas,

D.

[tjcast]

There are entirely too many variables to answer the "WHY" in Pete's specific case. First thing I would want to see is a data log off of a run via eagle tree or Castle.

You know we did this with Tom's new cat earlier this season. Kept blowing up 2030's his new cat (his own design) using an M445. I asked him if you guys knew what kind of amp draw it's making? At that point we installed my eagle tree, on the very first run it was measuring an AVERAGE of 100 amps. Now how many motors did Tom burn up before we established there was something wrong other than the motor? More importantly how many motors across the racing community have been accused of being faulty because of this same type of unknown issue?

This is what i am talking about regarding data so we can make an informed decision on where to head next. have a COLLECTION of this data would/could help us identify and rage the motor may/may not survive in...


[ATTACH=CONFIG]120088[/ATTACH]

Mike you PROMISED to keep that picture private and never post it on the internet ! LOL.

2 motors, each time making changes in set up, same results, ok on an X642, or x440/3 but too slow. Basic boat design flaw. That boat hasn't seen water since those tests.

I understand Terry's frustrations with proven set ups baking NEW motors but I also accept the fact that WE push these motors beyond their intended limits. Some times through the grace of the FE racing Gods we get away with exceeding those limits. Some times those Gods frown down on us and say "not today". I accept the fact that I run my set ups to where I may, at any time, burn a motor. Do I enjoy finding that magic number (size prop that will toast a motor in a set up, then prop one size down), NO. Will having more motor options solve this problem, I don't know but I would like to have the option to try.

I don't think anyone is looking for more speed out of P-Limited. I would just personally like to see a few more motor options.

[Darin Jordan]

Try this on for size... THIS is how you specify power systems for a class. ALL of these motors would work for P-LTD. They are all 550-sized, 4-Pole motors of various KVs, all spec'd to be competitive with each other in their class ( ROAR 1/8th Scale):



Type Importer Manufacturer Name/Description μH* Approval Date
1:8 Associated LRP LRP Vector 8 #LRP50910 2500kv November 3, 2009
1:8 Associated LRP LRP Vector 8 #LRP50920 2800kv November 3, 2009
1:8 Associated LRP LRP53240 Dynamic 8 2200Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated LRP LRP53270 Dynamic 8 2600Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated LRP LRP53230 Dynamic 8 1800Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated LRP LRP53235 Dynamic 8 2000Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated Reedy 989 Sonic 1512 2100Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated Reedy 993 Sonic 1512 5400Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Associated Reedy 988 Sonic 1512 1800Kv June 28, 2012
1:8 Castle Creations Neu/Castle 1515 - 2200CM January 19, 2009
1:8 Castle Creations Neu/Castle 2650CMS August 18, 2009
1:8 Hobby King Hobby King Turnigy Trackstar 22409 (1900Kv); 24519 (2100Kv); 32125 (2400Kv) April 22, 2014
1:8 Hobbywing Hobbywing 2000KV 4274 #90060000 XeRUN May 1, 2011
1:8 Hobbywing Hobbywing 2250KV 4168 #90060010 XeRUN May 1, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28813 Vortex MR8 August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion Team Orion VST@ Pro 690 4P ORI128271 (2100KV) July 3, 2013
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion Team Orion VST@ Pro 690 4P ORI128272 (2500KV) July 3, 2013
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28817 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28812 Vortex MR8 August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28815 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28816 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28818 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion Team Orion VST@ Pro 690 4P ORI128270 (1900KV) July 3, 2013
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28819 Vortex MR8L August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28811 Vortex MR8 August 18, 2011
1:8 Horizon Hobby Team Orion ORI28814 Vortex MR8 August 18, 2011
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138806V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 8.5T "2400KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion Cirtix slotless sensored 8th motor 2200Kv, p/n CSL01 June 5, 2010
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138807V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 9.5T "2100KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion Cirtix slotless sensored 8th motor 2500Kv, p/n CSL02 June 5, 2010
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138805V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 7.5T "2700KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138803V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 5.5T "3900KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 King Golden (CEFX) Speed Passion 138804V2 SilverArrow 1/8 Version 2.0 6.5T "3200KV" December 29, 2009
1:8 Losi Losi LOSB9420 1300kv October 2, 2009
1:8 Losi Losi LOSB9422 2100kv October 2, 2009
1:8 Losi Losi LOSB9421 1700kv October 2, 2009
1:8 Novak Electronics Novak Electronics 3800 - 3819 Ballistic 8 August 11, 2011
1:8 Tekin Tekin Tekin Redline T8 Gen 2 - Buggy Motors July 9, 2013
1:8 Tekin Tekin #4030 T8 All Winds October 1, 2009
1:8 Tekin Tekin #4038 T8 All Winds October 1, 2009
1:8 Tekin Tekin Tekin Redline T8i - Buggy Motors July 31, 2013
1:8 Thunder Power Thunder Power TPM-18A1900 - 1900KV Thunder Power Z3R-8 October 12, 2011
1:8 Thunder Power Thunder Power TPM-18A1400 - 1400KV Thunder Power Z3R-8 October 12, 2011
1:8 Thunder Power Thunder Power TPM-18A2100 - 2100KV Thunder Power Z3R-8 October 12, 2011
1:8 Thunder Power Thunder Power TPM-18A2400 - 2400KV Thunder Power Z3R-8 October 12, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE1800B1/ VSE-B 1800Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE1600B1/ VSE-B 1600Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE2450B1/ VSE-B 2450Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE1400B1/ VSE-B 1400Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions V F - 8 (Series) March 23, 2014
1:8 Viper RC Solutions Viper RC Solutions 8VSE2050B1/ VSE-B 2050Kv Modified Motor July 15, 2011

[jfrancisco892]

Well said Mr. Castellani.

[NativePaul]

We used Mega 22/30/2 (36x53.5mm, 5 mm shaft, 25mm spaced M3 mounting, 220gram, 6 pole, European made) motors for our spec class for several years here and I never heard of one going wrong. With that said we are endurance racing and not sprint racing using the motor as a fuse.

I would have thought burning motors from time to time would be expected in the P-ltd classes as the motor is the weak link in the chain, as we expect to puff cells from time to time with them being the weak link in our chain.

The RTR motors are all cheap Chinese motors (though marked up by an additional middle man) and we all know that quality control an uniformity of production is an issue with Chinese manufacturing. Normally we take this to be the chance of getting a bad motor, but for every bad one there must be a good too, could it not be that the folk some of the folk who say they have started getting consistently bad motors now could actually be getting average motors like most people always got, but their original motor happened to be a good one and an average or bad one wont pull the same prop, you might go through a few before you get another good one that will cope if you are not willing too prop down to the motor you have.

Water can make a huge difference to amp draws. Elmbridge, one of my local lakes is very thirsty, when we get visitors for the first time they often run out of juice before the end if they are tight on the time at their home lake and don't heed the advice to prop down, I think it is about 10-15% higher average amp draw than the typical lakes I go to. It looks no different, but whatever the quality of motor involved if your motor was propped to the limit at an average lake and you tried to run the same prop at Elmbridge it would burn for sure.

[TheShaughnessy]

Correct. It was a general statement. I used to do returns for a hobby shop, sadly equipment fails and manufactures make mistakes. Tower has covered thousands in faulty equipment that I personally sent to them. Horizon sent the wrong esc for a repair, let me keep a 80 amp esc when I called for an IM 17. The point is these companies want our business, they want a solid reputation and they take pride in what they do. Why would they tell someone to kick rocks if the complaint was legit?

I'm not professing to be some sort of p ltd wizard either, just sharing personal experience.