Dynamic high speed balancing services

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  • graill
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2008
    • 407

    #1

    Dynamic high speed balancing services

    Found a service after a lengthy search of a year and change and a boatload of refusals, a company in New York, Schenck Trebel Corporation will balance our props to a desired SERVICE rpm. Contact is Joe Palazzolo, Senior application engineer supervisor of the balancing services. They are a production facility providing balancing services for just about anything. Was very suprised to see he would even bother with something as small as our props.

    I have included a couple pics on a junk test prop and 2 of the 4 sheets of balance data that came back, quite a huge difference with the before and after. The pics show a dynamic balance to 45k service rpm, Joe said they are capable of taking the balance even higher and would be able to get the target centers nearly dead on, but that would cost more. Right now a flat fee is 45 bucks for what is shown. They made a custom arbor for this and would do so for any prop sent that they did not have on hand. I did not get the arbor back with the prop.

    You will need to contact Joe and discuss pricing if you want more or less or do bulk or whatever. You would also need to discuss shipping.

    balanceafter.jpgbalancebefore.jpgprop1.jpgprop2.jpgprop3.jpg
    One photo flashed a bit to brightly and a balance hole looks rough, the balance holes are clean and smooth. The blade shown is a test mule with basic static balance done before i sent it to him, the photos are what i recieved back. He can dynamically balance any prop for any operating service rpm. For those that do not understand the difference between static and dynamic, static is balanced while still (not operational rpm) dynamic is operational rpm balancing. Big difference. You can see from the results it was quite huge.

    As for what the prop did that i got back. suffice to say the high rpm vibration was gone on a friends test boat verse his stock prop (both were 467, throttle limit restricted to 70% because we were dry testing). Folks need to do their own testing and observations since this availability is new for folks.

    Email for Joe is: Joseph.Palazzolo@schenck-usa.com

    Steve and myself are receiving nothing from this. This is a service i found and and FYI to those that want to use it. Some may find the static balance sufficient since no type of dynamic balance service has been available anywhere until now. So use it or not, curious to see if this does anything for anyone.
  • m4a1usr
    Fast Electric Addict
    • Nov 2009
    • 2036

    #2
    Originally posted by graill View Post
    Steve and myself are receiving nothing from this. This is a service i found and and FYI to those that want to use it. Some may find the static balance sufficient since no type of dynamic balance service has been available anywhere until now. So use it or not, curious to see if this does anything for anyone.
    Not quite true. I have been using a dynamic balancer for more than 2 years from a local service I helped develop for another similar requirement. But. I do commend you for pursueing this method of achieving what we all seek, thats perfection or max eff in our setups. Great stuff Grail. And the price you quote is quite resonable. I hope those who want to sqeak out the last few percentile of their setups seek this service. Oh,..........and ensure your drive line is balanced as well. This logic of using floating bushings, without defining maximum dimensional limits is nothing more than an open invitation to failure or delusional mentality. I'm not going that road again with anybody. Tolerances of components are what allows our systems to behave where we want them to. Design in them to be loose and you just added limits of what they can achieve in max eff. Decrease loose tolerances and they can perform at much better eff levels. Its not rocket science. Heck. Look at the aircraft industry such as turbine blades. You think they have large gaps? Google how much tolerance does an intake blade or better yet. A compressor blade have. Whats that you find? Hmm,.......they know friction dont they? Better leverage off that science to make your system perform at its peak.


    John
    Change is the one Constant

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    • jkr
      FE Addiction
      • Aug 2010
      • 582

      #3
      WOW.
      With so many holes (for my eyes) tells that how much unballanced are our prop at the time they spin!

      Comment

      • kingwrench
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2011
        • 221

        #4
        Mike great info will def use this service.
        Top Gun 2011, "current problem" 88MPH. Top Gun 2014 "Marine One" 99 MPH. bet speed to date 125 MPH

        Comment

        • Basstronics
          Fast Electric Addict!
          • Jun 2008
          • 2384

          #5
          In case anyone was unaware Schenck is a manufacturer of balancing equipment. I worked in a high end crank manufacturing facility for awhile producing some top tier cranks (LS7, Viper, Ford GT40, Hummer to name a few) and all of our balancers were Schenck. Note dynamic balancing is an art of sorts- a skilled operator can do a much better job than a rookie as there is a "feel" for it.

          I might opt in on this on my JAE after it comes back and see the before/after gains (if any). In this hobby $45 aint much money for an experiment of sorts.
          42" Osprey, 32" Pursuit, 26" Bling Rocket (rescue), Blizzard Rigger, JAE 21FE rigger, Hobby King rigger (RIP)

          Comment

          • properchopper
            rcgoatbuild@snotmail.com
            • Apr 2007
            • 7708

            #6
            I may be missing the point ( happens to me a lot) but going to great lengths to achieve optimum balance, statically and/or dynamically and then mounting it up linked to what usually is an out-of-balance drive dog makes me wonder. This has been addressed before and the answer seemed to be that the entire drive line needs to be balanced as a unit before maximum results are achieved. If anything, since this thread is about props only, and the prop/drive dog mate up as one, I'd think balancing the prop/drive dog together makes sense. Just sayin'..........
            2008 NAMBA P-Mono & P-Offshore Nat'l 2-Lap Record Holder; '15 P-Cat, P-Ltd Cat 2-Lap
            2009/2010 NAMBA P-Sport Hydro Nat'l 2-Lap Record Holder, '13 SCSTA P-Ltd Cat High Points
            '11 NAMBA [P-Ltd] : Mono, Offshore, OPC, Sport Hydro; '06 LSO, '12,'13,'14 P Ltd Cat /Mono

            Comment

            • Basstronics
              Fast Electric Addict!
              • Jun 2008
              • 2384

              #7
              I guess this may depend on the arbor they made to balance these props on.

              If it was made with a straight shaft and a drive dog it should then be fairly accurate. The key will fit into the prop and there will be some gap. The steel will be heavier than the props material, so the gap will help offset this effect to an extent.

              But like m4a1usr said, if your struts a loose goose whats the difference...

              Worth a test I suppose. I bet this would work out best for those with a ball bearing setup.

              Also the way these balancers work you wouldnt be able to balance with the flex cable.
              42" Osprey, 32" Pursuit, 26" Bling Rocket (rescue), Blizzard Rigger, JAE 21FE rigger, Hobby King rigger (RIP)

              Comment

              • TristanJones
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2012
                • 266

                #8
                Originally posted by properchopper View Post
                I may be missing the point ( happens to me a lot) but going to great lengths to achieve optimum balance, statically and/or dynamically and then mounting it up linked to what usually is an out-of-balance drive dog makes me wonder. This has been addressed before and the answer seemed to be that the entire drive line needs to be balanced as a unit before maximum results are achieved. If anything, since this thread is about props only, and the prop/drive dog mate up as one, I'd think balancing the prop/drive dog together makes sense. Just sayin'..........
                Im with this guy ^^

                Comment

                • KartRacer
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2012
                  • 363

                  #9
                  Have to agree with properchopper, a " perfectly" balanced prop goes to hell in a hurry with all of the stacked up tolerances of the driveline. The current way to balance which is probably not even close to perfection is good enough for me!:)
                  KartRacer ~ Dennis B
                  Delta Force Pirate 35'~Leopard 4092~1480Kv~Seaking 180~2X6S 65C 5000 Mha Dynogy Lipo,Parallel

                  Comment

                  • properchopper
                    rcgoatbuild@snotmail.com
                    • Apr 2007
                    • 7708

                    #10
                    With sincere apologies to Mr. Grail and the others here for making light of a truly important issue , I offer for your amusement the following video of what happened while balancing a prop/drive dog combo when a poltergeist got involved:

                    2008 NAMBA P-Mono & P-Offshore Nat'l 2-Lap Record Holder; '15 P-Cat, P-Ltd Cat 2-Lap
                    2009/2010 NAMBA P-Sport Hydro Nat'l 2-Lap Record Holder, '13 SCSTA P-Ltd Cat High Points
                    '11 NAMBA [P-Ltd] : Mono, Offshore, OPC, Sport Hydro; '06 LSO, '12,'13,'14 P Ltd Cat /Mono

                    Comment

                    • justski
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2012
                      • 254

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Mike Caruso
                      Love the video Tony!
                      Have you ever checked just the shaft for balance? My little balancer like yours came with the shafts, but the shafts did not run true. Seems the points on the ends are not in center of the shaft and also different from side to side. Some thing a new person to boating might not notice while trying to balance they first propeller.
                      I was in contact with Joe Joseph.Palazzolo@schenck-usa.com who really helpful. He also let me know they have another location 20 minutes from me. It's just outside of Chicago,IL in Elk Grove and I am going to stop out there and visit with Tom who is in charge there.
                      Joe said YES it would be the correct way to balance the prop with the stub shaft and drive dog. Which he said he could do if the person (s) sent him their stub shaft and drive dog along with their props. In 1972 when I first met Tom P. from Octura I asked about balancing and he said the drive line is more of a problem as engines are turning higher rpm.
                      Regard's to all. And Tony you have the right attitude keeping the hobby FUN sometimes we talk ourselves to seriously!!!
                      Mike
                      Mike how you check the shaft for balance?....i am new to boating and balance props and i been working on my prop for hours its like one time its balanced then its out of balance its making me nuts worse than my wife .LOL

                      Comment

                      • justski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2012
                        • 254

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Mike Caruso
                        Glad to tell you how I did mine and I am sure there are other ways and you can get nuts quick.
                        Do you have a magnetic type balancer? If yes just take a Sharpe marking pen and put a line on the shaft end to end. Now spin it in the balancer a few times. It will be in balance when the shaft does not always stop in the same location like the prop does when you started working on it and it's heavy on one side. If the shaft ends are ground in the center, and finished so the shaft runs true plus stops anywhere your good. There is the possibility of a shaft being pulled to one spot by magnets something to do with the metal.
                        Now if you have an Octura Prop balancer 'steel shaft which rolls on steel shafts' or one like it you do not have any ends to be ground centered. Just level it and roll the shaft noting the position it stops in every time. Remember the Tether Boat racers used a block of wood and two razor blades and ran 150 and higher mph.
                        Pay close attention to the balance shaft fit into the propeller. If the hole in the prop is too loose it will not repeat and you will be happy to take the wife out for a dinner.
                        Mike
                        Thanks Mike ...i was just looking at my balancer and just watching the shaft spin with a prop on i can see my shaft move up and down on one the end that dont touch the magnetic

                        Comment

                        • justski
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2012
                          • 254

                          #13
                          so i guess that is what throwing me off...i been working on this prop for awile now and its like ill almost get it and take it off the shaft to work on it and then its way off again .nothing like making a person nuts well more nuts

                          Comment

                          • R.J.S
                            Racer
                            • Apr 2012
                            • 152

                            #14
                            Save your sanity,just buy your sharpened and balanced props from OSE,and don't even check them!You'll have a lot more FUN!!!

                            Comment

                            • justski
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2012
                              • 254

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Mike Caruso
                              Thats another way to do it. There are some very good people that can do up props. Some of us guy's just like rubbing, tweaking, bending not just props but everything LOL
                              Mike
                              THANKS ALOT MIKE!!!! now my wife wants to know where you live ..LOL..........i think thats what i am going to do is just buy them balanced ...less i can get this balancer fixed.. i just bought it knew one would think it should work with out pi$$ing people off...LOL....

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