Genisis...

[1945dave]

Yes Jim, that pretty much is the story of my experiences in this hobby. I have written a number of articles in various magazines pertaining to items that are still in discussion on this forum and others today. I did an article on Wedge rudders 30 years ago and the why's and why not. Also did a article on off-set rudder placement same parameters in the 1070's. At my age bench racing is more fun anyway. Actually I like helping "junior" members learn the ropes but I am quick to admit that I can learn from almost anybody if they are willing to share.

With that said has anyone converted a 42 inch Seaducer to Fast Electric? My next project. Thinking 240 amp ESC and 4092 on 8S.....

[Rob DeAngelis]

Well nice to meet ya Dave! AS far as the seaducer 42 no I havent but I would love to see it done If you have time check out my build on the 55" segad cat... easy way to get to it is go to my profile and look at my started threads...
Thanks
Rob

[Bone]

Sounds like it will more than "look" like a screamer, I hope you put up a video. I think 6S is too much for me. Has anyone ran 5S with stock genesis motor?...... and I'm in the Ozark Hills, I was almost that inbred trailer guy! whew I'm not in a trailer, but other than that, I was almost offended... heheehe

I'm using 5S in my Genesis although am not using the standard motor - see details below.

I have upgraded my Genesis with a Leopard 4074 2150 KV, a Seaking 180 ESC & an Octura X445 prop all powered with a pair of Zippy 5S 5000ma 45C Lipos in parallel (the latter being a nice snug fit in each side of the hull).

Ran it yesterday & clocked it with gps at 98 km/h or 60.9 mph. This is my first ever FE boat & I am more than happy with how things worked out - that Genesis really fangs along. Some fine tuning & I hope to hit the 100km/h mark. And yes, I do have the 3/16" shaft upgrade in parts box for replacement of the standard drivetrain when it inevitably goes bang

Greg from Oz

[1945dave]

Bone, what motor timing did you set your ESC to? I think you can go up a prop size or two and the 100km/h should be a snap.

Regarding upgrading to the 3/16th flex. Personally I believe you can run all day with the stock square drive shaft assembly on 5S as long as you DON"T, repeat DON"T nail it from a dead stop or do really hard slow downs and rapid throttle stick (trigger?) movements. The problem with waiting until the stock shaft goes "bang" is, if this does happen you can believe there will be some serious damage done to the shaft tube (log/stuffing box) I would suggest you just remove the teflon liner and flex shaft and upgrade now to be safe. Other wise it sounds like you have it covered. good luck.

Dave

[Bone]

Hi Dave, thank you for those kind words of encouragement & also the wise words of the "do's & dont's" with respect to drive shaft management. Whilst I have done a fair bit of reading about FE boats, my practical experience & knowledge in this area is virtually nil so your comments are very much appreciated.

I set the motor timing to 7.5 degrees which I understand is a "middle of the range" setting for the Leopard 4074 2200KV. Next weekend I will increase the timing by increments & measure the speed results.

A few questions if I may:

1/. you mentioned going up in prop size - eg: an Octura X447 ?
2/. for the Genesis platform, are there any advantages to be gained in using a 3 blade prop over the more conventional 2 blade prop?
3/. with changing up to the 3/16" shaft, is it simply a matter of removing the teflon liner & flex drive & simply inserting the new liner & flex? I understood it was necessary to install a slightly bigger diameter section of outer brass tubing. At least that is what came with my drive shaft upgrade kit.

BTW, I also purchased this particular model too - wow, this boating bug has really bitten me big time:

http://shop.rcboatbitz.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25&products_id=622

The Pursuit comes with the 3/16" drive & has a Leopard 4074 2200KV motor already installed. Have a pair of 4S 5000ma batteries & 180amp Seaking esc to complete the beast. I have been really inspired by the Pursuit boat that OSE member Diesel is running. His Youtube video is a real eye opener. All I need now is one of his secret props .............

[iamandrew]

you might have to re do your entire rudder setup for a 447 prop, i found the 645 was almost hitting the rudder bracket.

as for 2 or 3 blade, get a few to test if you can and see how it goes.

I run my genesis with a 3 blade x642 and its a hell of a lot smoother than a 2 blade prop.
and no you sadly cant just buy a full 3/16 flex shaft and install.
you can do a 150 to 3/16 stub and use the teflon and current brass tube , then replace the strut

[Bone]

Thank you for reply & the advices re props & replacing the flex shafts. Will obtain a few extra props & do the experimenting which is a real good part of all this fun.

This is the upgrade kit I purchased from our local Aussie dealer. Contains all the parts needed. Seems the only real tricky part with be getting the correct shaped bend in the outer brass tube.

http://shop.rcboatbitz.com.au/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=39&products_id=753

I plan to do this upgrade soon as I really don't want to impart damage to that sweet Genesis hull if the stock flex shaft goes bang

[1945dave]

Bone, no need for thanks but I must admit we don't get a lot of that around here and it is nice that you did say it. So you are welcome. Now....

If you do log some speed readings after making a few changes in the ESC motor timing I would be greatful to hear your results. Good information to post here.

I have had the liberty to read Andrews reply and so I am guarded in how to respond but here goes. First it is a given that though we all have the same basic boat there are some suttle differences that creep up from owner to owner and I can not account for these differences. For example I have run the x645 and don't understand why that prop might come close to hitting the rudder bracket, I did not have that same problem but I did not find that prop to be ideal for my setup anyway. I too have run a couple of three blades and no question they are very smooth but much harder to balance. I did not find that I gained anything from a performance point of view using a three blade. Acceleration is better because you have more thrust generated by more blade area. Keep this in mind. The working portion of a good prop is at the 70 percent point of the radius. In other words if you raise the strut above a certain height and even if the prop is not cavitating badly the performance will drop off because the portions of the blade being asked to do the work lose efficency and thus do not push as it should because the pitch decreases over the radius. Don't get too wrapped up in this just understand that most guys don't raise the strut enough but it is possible to raise the strut too high and perhaps then a larger diameter prop could hit the strut/rudder bracket, then the solution would be to lower the strut.

Now back to prop choices. I have recommended and I prefer on the Genesis to run the M series of Octura props. There is a very slight difference in blade shape when comparing the X455 and the M455. Yet to satisfy your desire to hit 100 km/h I think going with a X640 or X642 will do the trick. This has a slightly higher pitch ratio and is slightly smaller in diameter. I would bet money that this would break the 100 km/h mark. I have not tried a m645 and am not sure that Octura makes a M640 or M642 prop. What I think would be ideal though I haven't jumped out there to buy a few to test out but Octura does make a M5 series. Meaning a pitch ratio of 1.5 times the diameter in millimeters.

Okay, regarding the 3/16th flex shaft. This is my opinion so take that for what it is worth. I am not sold on teflon liners. I have only seen upclose and personal about 6 or 7 Genesis boats. Mine and a few others but not all came with a stainless steel stuffing box/tube with the teflon liner. I actually prefer brass tubes and no liner. However, the ideal stuffing tube size without liner is 1/4 inch and that is what size my Genesis came with so I just had to remove the liner and replace the strut assembly, the motor collet, cut the 3/16 shaft and go. If you want to stay with the teflon liner then you have major work to do in replacing the shaft/stuffing box through the hull. Not wrong answers here just decide what makes you feel comfortable and do it. If you do go without a teflon liner just make sure you keep the flex shaft well greased.

This subject has not been discussed anywhere on this forum that I am aware of but the general subject involves offsetting the rudder. So I will jump out and shake up the discussion a bit by saying this. I really love and really believe offsetting the rudder is a good thing and should improve handling on any surface drive boat even the Genesis. However, there is a right way to do this and a wrong way to do this. Many guys think adding a "Z" bracket to do this is quick easy and cheap. Yes this is true but totally wrong. I want to see anybody that has done this show me proof that their top straight away speed stayed the same or improved over the stock inline rudder hardware design. It can't and I will tell you why. The "Z" bracket hits the water and causes real drag. You should be able to see this situation by watching the spray coming off the rear of the boat. I am challenged by all the guys that discuss this subject and have never said anything like this on this forum. So watch and see now that I have started this issue and see where it goes.

The Pursuiit is a gfreat little boat. In fact the same sets of props that you might consider are also good choices for the pursuit. There are some you tube videos showing 4S Pursuits running with a X645s and also the M645 props. Real impressive.

Good luck again,

Dave

[JonD]

This is the upgrade kit I purchased from our local Aussie dealer. Contains all the parts needed. Seems the only real tricky part with be getting the correct shaped bend in the outer brass tube. http://shop.rcboatbitz.com.au/index....roducts_id=753

It's certainly not necessary to replace the existing stuffing tube if it's OK. Replacing the brass stuffing tube with a 3/16 tube (instead of the stock 6mm tube) and getting it all lined up and bent correcty and installed/glued is a fair bit of work. Your choice, but your other option (which many do) is to stay with the stock 6mm tube and strut, and replace only the sleeve bearings in the strut to suit the new 3/16 prop shaft and flex. That's all that is required for upgrading to 3/16inch/0.150 shaft and flex. You will need to drill out (remove) the existing 4mm bearings from the strut, and redrill the strut to suit new 3/16 teflon/lead bearings (from Kintec or maybe OSE if they have them).

Ideally you'll need a drill press and vice to drill the strut out accurately to 1/4 inch dia suit the new bearings. I think I wrote up some step-by-step instructions for the procedure somewhere. If you don't feel like replacing the stuffing tube, send me a PM with your e-mail and I'll see if I can find them and send them to you.

Where in Australia are you?

Cheers,

Jon

[1945dave]

JonD confirms my feelings. But don't forget you do need to change out the collet as well. Be sure to leave about 3/16 extra free play between the front of the drive dog and the thrust bearing. Unlike the stock square drive setup the one piece flex shaft will shorten under load and if there is not room to do that you will stress the cable and add unnecessary friction. I would check how the new strut that came with your upgrade kit fits the existing 6mm stuffing tube If that can match up okay I would have no concern about using the new strut so You don't have to alter the stock strut.

Dave,

[martin]

Dave re the z bracket, this has been done but probably not discussed on this forum. I agree totally if the z bracket is not designed right it will affect performance re water hitting it. The first z brackets were solid in depth with just a square hole for the rudder control arm to pass through, what was found the spray leaving the prop hit the bottom of the bracket a affected performance. The brackets were modded to & the bottom of the bracket cut away just leaving the top of the bracket to hold the rudder & this made a big difference to things. Ideally a separate bracket coming of the transome would work better still than a z type bracket

[Bone]

Thank you to all for your contributions to my questions. The info provided adds to my knowledge base, both in memory & printed form. No immediate plans to offset the rudder but knowing in advance of what works / does not work is priceless information.

Will do more testing this coming Saturday re fine tuning. The strut is currently raised approx 2 mm & will increase in mm increments, taking note of the overall performance & speed obtained. Currently have a small selection of props so will try those as well, more props in the mail but those wont be ready for running for 2 weeks or so. As requested, I will post results for the benefits of forum readers.

With respect to upgrading the flex drive, I not inclined (at this point) to remove the existing tube so will try the idea as floated by Dave in post #38.

And Jon, I live in Grafton, northern New South Wales. Which part of Oz do you inhabit?

regards,

Greg aka Bone

[JonD]

Greg,

I'm in Burpengary, Queensland, about 40mins drive along the highway north of Brisbane.

Cheers,

Jon

[Maciek74]

iam right after some first tests of my Genesis, with Leo 3674 1799kv - ESC180 Turnigy - 2x6s parallel, so far best results i have on Octura x442, tried also x438 (way to small) and x445 (speed compareable to x442 but too much heat and shorter runing time) ive ordered telemetry so still no speed measurements :)
after some tests ive started to look closer on my boat assembling and discovered that shaft tube is 5mm left from center of boat, how important is alingment of tube to center? can it be reason i have to countersteer a lot during highspeed passes? are there any galeries of well designed and rebuilded Genesis i can look and learn from? :)
and my most important question i need badly link to some movies or guides of how to balance propeler correctly, those from YT arent helping too much... :)

regards,
Maciek

[JIM MARCUM]

OK Rob, it's time for an update on your Genesis build. An, by the way, how's the Segad build coming along?

Keep the lakesiders entertained, my friend. JIM