What am i missing - 2

[JIM MARCUM]

The original WAIM? was a cool discussion thread. Many excellent points were made there.

What I would like to see changed is a MINIMUM hull length added to the existing maximum hull length in the S & T classes. This is especially true in SAW racing. On a glassy lake LOA is not a limiting factor. So, due to less aero/hydrodynamic drag, and a voltage limit of 8S-10S, a 34"-40" boat will have a huge advantage over a heavier 50"-60" boat. If we want to stay true to the INTENT of large 60" S & T classes, we should race BIG boats with other BIG boats. What do you think? JIM

[Rumdog]

Race a smaller boat

[Fluid]

There never was any "intent" for the sizes of S and T boats when the classes were designed. Until a few years ago we ran 30" hulls in S and T. The current length limits were forced through by "racers" with limited experience but timid demeanors. They were apparently afraid that someone would build a 45" P hydro and somehow that would be so much faster than a 30" hydro that it would not be fair. Hey, the limits are working because no one is building the huge costly boats. It doesn't matter that no one ever did such a silly thing, nor that it would not provide a performance advantage with the current power limits. But by god "the limits are working".

They are working if you mean that a racer with a 36" Sport Hydro he'd like to take to the Nats is forced to bring one for Q and another one for P, instead of one to run in both classes and saving considerable money. They are working if you mean that racers running in high wind and waves can't finish a heat with a 27" N-2 hydro but could if they were able to run a 33" N-2 hydro. They are working if you mean that racers are forced to run 30" hydros in P because very few hulls are available in that size range - unless you can build your own. They are working if you mean you are preventing fuel racers from converting fuel hulls they are used to running into FE hulls. They are working if trying to be exclusive rather than inclusive is the goal.

Funny how nitro and gas have no length limits - yet they don't have problems as engine power has increased. Length limits are not needed, the racers will determine what works in competition - which is as it should be. Imposing a minimum length is even more exclusive. These are not scale classes guys.




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[Darin Jordan]

Jay... You've been waiting a long time to fully vent about the length limits, haven't you??

You make some good points on the length limits, but there are a lot of very valid counter-points to almost all of it... Been there, done that... and I'm not one of the timid ones either... Nor lacking experience... Considering that IMPBA has the limits as well, I'm apparently not the only one who thought they were a decent idea.

I will, however, agree with you on the minimums... If a person can stuff 10S in a 30" boat and survive a heat, they have the skills of driving and setup and if they win, then they have earned it... We don't need any further restrictions in the "open" classes.

[Flying Scotsman]

The original thread was great and yes it did veer off course but it had tremendous information......where is the original.

Douggie

[T.S.Davis]

The current length limits were forced through by "racers" with limited experience but timid demeanors.
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Come on Jay. We expect better from you. I know you know the procedure for a rule change. Those lengths were debated to death long before they were proposed. No matter how anybody feels about them, nobody FORCES anything in NAMBA.

I don't know how it works in IMPBA. I think the chair proposes a trial and then it goes to vote. SO IMPBA ran the limits for a year before it was voted on. The members voted as they saw fit. Same as NAMBA.

[T.S.Davis]

I just remembered some history on big boats. Irrelevant but I thought I'd share.

Before there was any boats over 18 sub C cells we ran a class we called "Unlimited Offshore". It was a 19+ cell, you figure it out, offshore class we ran for 4 minutes. We had no clue what we were doing. I ran a FDM32 ABS plastic mono with 19 cells and a Makita drill motor. Then I upgraded to a Titan 29 running 20 cells and a Milwaukee drill motor. hahaha Tucker had a Systems with 24 cells I think. These things were just stupid. If your cells survived the weekend you were a super hero. The second or third season we ran it we saw a guy show with an Aeromarine Cyclone that had 5 Aveox motors on gear drives with a gazillion cells. That was the last race on that tiny pond.

[HTVboats]

After many years of heat racing nitro and gas boats I am fairly new to electrics. Studying the rules I do question the maximun length rules as if someone wants better handling and ability to run rougher water a larger boat makes sense. What works and can win will take it's course. Maybe someone can bring me up to speed on whats unfair about using a larger heavier boat?
That said on ther big end there needs to be a lenght and weight limitation if we want to keep insurance costs in line. For the few that want and can afford mega-boats sorry. My son Jay had quite a bit to do with procuring an affordable insurance policy for IMPBA and being a retired agent I understand what drives costs. Your yearly dues could take a big hit in the future with no regulation on maximun size,weight and power.
Mic

[jevmax]

I agree with Jay 100%. No need to restate it all. The only length limit that should stay in the NAMBA rule for FE is the max length of 60" due to insurance considerations.

[T.S.Davis]

That's pretty interesting.

In one camp we have guys wanting to put the absolute maximum power available into the smallest package they can to get the most speed with little or in some cases no regard for the handling.

In another camp there are guys that want to put the smallest possible power plant in the largest package possible for handling/finishing. That and so they can race one boat in many classes.

So, 60" boats on N2 power at 600 amps? I know, that's just silly it can't be done.........today. My Titan29 used to take 19 cells. Anything over 90 amps was molten mess. That's a touch under 6s at 2000 watts. Approximately. A 6s setup today could in theory put out 4000 watts give or take. So a 100% increase in avaible power. My Titan40 was a 24 cell boat. Because that's what it took. Now a T40 could be run on limited spec. The tech moved and keeps moving. You guys always site fuel classes as a reference. When was the last time fuel power available increased in power by 100% in only a few years? Heck, a 50% increase even? Sure the power has come up but great leaps in HP haven't happened.

Is this the last leap the last for us? I don't know. Probably not. Think of all the other innovations we had to live through. Nicd, Nimh, brushless motors, LiPo, A123, ever evloving speed controllers.

We had to have some way to define classes. Maybe it's not a long term solution but we had to have something because voltage isn't enough to provide parity when the output can vary by such a huge margin. 300 amp esc's were out of the question just a couple seasons ago. 600 amp will never happen right. I think we said something like that when we all ran Hacker 70's about 200 amp ESC's

A better argument might be that we need only 3 classes. Sport, hydro, mono. With no distinction between voltages. All the boats will be 60" and powered as needed. Then you're not "required" to bring two boats to the nats to race two classes. Nobody needs to have more than 3 boats for racing. Wait.........I like boats......a lot. Can I have too many boats really? Scratch that idea.

You guys know the procedure for rule proposals. You also know that the set we have was voted in by the membership. The membership (sheeple if you prefer, yes me too) are okay with it for now.

[T.S.Davis]

if you mean that racers running in high wind and waves can't finish a heat with a 27" N-2 hydro but could if they were able to run a 33" N-2 hydro.
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Jay, what about the guys that built their 27" hydros and finished every heat and won the class by running as fast as a 27" sport hydro would allow them to go? That's a BS argument. When ZERO 27" sports finish N2 sport then it's not working. Not when YOUR (or mine for that matter) boat doesn't finish. I've blown my LSH off the water and been beat by guys that setup for the water/weather/wind/rain/heat what ever. Bit windy, they propped down and I didn't. That's not the rules fault. That's my fault.

[D. Newland]

...The current length limits were forced through by "racers" with limited experience but timid demeanors. COLOR="#FFFFFF"].[/COLOR]

Wow. Absolutely speechless, Jay.

In case anyone wants a history lesson on length limits, I actually went searching for "old" threads on this topic. There are many.

Then, I realized that I had this thread saved (see below) in my favorites. It's a great read. Maybe today is the reason why I saved it so long ago.

Take time with it. Read it in it's entirety. Seems like some are looking for some good drama right now, anyway. Maybe we can pick it apart, saying who was right/wrong. That should make for an interesting winter.

I hope you will see that there was no way to please everybody and we all had good intentions. What's missing in the thread is NAMBA's political and membership environment, where FE makes up about 10% of membership, and any FE proposal's outcome risks its outcome by how well each side politics it's reasoning with the other 90% of membership and gets their their support.

An old thread full of timid and inexperienced FE racers discussing what path FE should take when LiPo's hit the scene

[T.S.Davis]

What do you know Dave! Your only an FE Chair and a national high points champion.

That thread is creepy. 2007! There's some good conversation on there. I was actually consistent too. I even used a simlar argument with the T29. Go figure.

I'm still afraid of Eddie......because he's a giant.

[JIM MARCUM]

I failed to turn on my brain before I started this thread. Sorry. As Tony Properchopper reminded me earlier when I ragged about raising voltage limits, FE boaters are a small minority in NAMBA. My suggested minimum lengths were intended for FE SAW racing only. All the FE SAW racers in NAMBA could fit in a phone booth. Thanks to everyone for their comments. JIM

[Doby]

I've blown my LSH off the water and been beat by guys that setup for the water/weather/wind/rain/heat what ever. Bit windy, they propped down and I didn't. That's not the rules fault. That's my fault.

Again, its called a speed controller for a reason...not an on/off switch